Debunking cold approach pick up (the sequel)

[Silvertree]

I was "insulting" MYSELF as a demonstration of how silly it is to be all emotional in this context. In the context of "developing skills" there is a "best" game. Cold approach game develops the largest PU skillset and makes you the freest man. Objective fact. This should cause NO ONE insult.

I agree with you.

I'm simply asking everyone to quit using insulting language aimed at other styles. This thread has a lot of direct game is great, other styles suck, and not much on how to do direct game. My game is better than your game posts are neither helpful nor do they lead to a friendly atmosphere. I am not singling you out, I picked the quotes from you and Jack because they were on the last page, and I was too lazy to go back and dig out others.

Our goal is to enable rational debate, and to make all schools of game feel welcome here.

[kant]

I thought it was well known that I prefer social circle, I've written numerous posts on it. And my only LR on this forum is from online.

I was "insulting" MYSELF as a demonstration of how silly it is to be all emotional in this context. In the context of "developing skills" there is a "best" game. Cold approach game develops the largest PU skillset and makes you the freest man. Objective fact. This should cause NO ONE insult.

In the context of "developing skills," MY OWN preferred style of game, social circle, is less effective than cold approach. That fact costs my ego ZERO, there is ZERO insult.

EDIT -

And I like the "free man" point being brought up by others. MY OWN preferred type of game, social circle, makes me LESS of a free man than cold approach game, I'm locked into whoever happens to be a part of my social circle or extended social circle this way. Zero insult. Just an objective fact.

Strongly agree with everything pureevil wrote in this thread.

I recently deleted Tinder because it was a CRUTCH. Now I force myself to flirt with cute girls I meet in real life throughout my day because I have no choice. How cool is that?

Don't get me wrong, I love Sedfast and I'm thankful for it. But this place has scared away its top talent throughout the years. Chitown Maverick, Teevster, etc. guys who go out and get incredible results. But newsflash to the mods: the most talented people in this world are divas and you have to learn to work with them. Take this from a professional recruiter who focuses on ultra high end talent in NY.

Pureevil and ijjji are great of course, but when most posters are either newbies who circle jerk with limiting beliefs or blue pill guys who haven't seduced a girl in 10 years (you know who you are) then this doesn't make for progress in seduction. Oftentimes reading the posts here affect my mental state making me feel like getting laid is way harder than it actually is. Then I remember the crazy stuff that's happened to me over the last couple of years (foursome with two very cute NYU girls and my guy friend, completely sober within 30 mins meet to lay comes to mind) and I manage to snap out of it. Getting laid is easy, attractive people do it all the time.

To the newbs I recommend checking out the articles on Girlschase which are all written by top PU guys with extensive and verified field experience and generally shutting the hell up about your limiting beliefs. That site isn't perfect but it's gold compared to most of the community. Stay out of reddit and other limiting beliefs circle jerk communities. And go try to make crazy shit happen, even if you fail you'll learn from the experience.

Sorry, rant over.

Kant

[Bluemoon]

Whether you care to develop a full "walk out the door and meet chicks" skillset or not is up to you. I just want to call a spade a spade.

Agree.

If you're perfectly happy being reliant on a calculator, then go for it. Generally its considered best for the student to learn arithmetic FIRST for several years, and THEN use a calculator, as that makes them a better, brighter, and more well-rounded and developed student, but whatever works for you. The guy that only knows arithmetic on a calculator is lesser developed than the guy who fully understands arithmetic though, there's no way around that.

Agree

I'm writing this for the betterment of those learning PU on this site. I guess the old MASF was a community of guys pushing themselves hard to outdo each other, to become their best selves, where innovation was the goal, and now that I've come back to its replacement here its become something very much else.

Not so much agree. mASF may have been that way whe I joined, but mASF is also where the rot set in, with increasing numbers of guys proclaiming that all you needed to do was "remember that women like sex" and "be social!", and that was pretty much all you needed.

Which is necessary, but not sufficient, to get really good with girls. And for a long time, a lot of people lost sight of that.

You go to the Chase blog and some private forums and they're full of amazing "how to be your best self" mentalities and advice. Here its "how to be happy enough with as little effort as possible." Personally, that mentality doesn't sit well, I'm about "what's best" not "what's easiest," so I push against it, that's my nature. "Best" makes me happy, "easy" leaves me dissatisfied, personally, unless its in line with "best." But guys looking for more will find it, so maybe this forum serves its purpose in the PU world and attracts those who are looking for what it offers. My time here may be close to running its course.

Why? Because not every person on this forum doesn't want to go all out cold approach? Since when did we ever have consensus on anything?

You know when the get "really good through cold approach" movement died on mASF? It was when most of the really good cold approach guys got pissed off with everyone else and left. That left us with the other side, also very vocal, pretending that "WOMEN LOVE COCK!" got you "personal 10s". Anyone who wanted to learn from and discuss with other like-minded people was screwed at that point. That included me, grinding my teeth in frustration as I read about stuff that I knew didn't really work very well (because I'd tried it!) unless you had other factors working for you.

My point is, you have your demographic. There are clearly guys on this forum who are pushing themselves and want to get really good. IA, T&M, kant, Jack Gignac, Tarzan... You've got established guys like Tov and Teevster (assuming his ban was temporary). You've even got old gits like me who would really like a few more years doing crazy stuff, but need to refine some aspects of their game to compensate for the fact that they don't have the looks or lifestyle they had at 30.

I only dabble in it these days though. I wish I had the motivation and balls to do it. When I was on the old forum, I remember posting a shitload of field reports about my cold approach PU outings. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that I was influenced by everyone else that was going out cold approaching.

I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea if we, as a whole, began to shift back to the old school way of doing things. We could feed off each other and use it as motivation.

I was thinking about starting a thread called "Challenge me"...and the thread would entail everyone challenging other people to push themselves to do things, and they have to keep trying until they do the thing in which they were challenged to do. I think I will still make that post soon.

I've definitely detected a sea change here over the last few months, and I think we need to capitalise on it. We need to worry less about convincing guys who do only online or social, and instead concentrate on establishing a core group of guys who share pureevil's philosophy. There are easily enough guys on here to do that, and there is no reason why we can't co-exist with everyone else.

Strongly agree with everything pureevil wrote in this thread.

I recently deleted Tinder because it was a CRUTCH. Now I force myself to flirt with cute girls I meet in real life throughout my day because I have no choice. How cool is that?

It is tres cool. I am sure Tarzan would approve also.

Don't get me wrong, I love Sedfast and I'm thankful for it. But this place has scared away its top talent throughout the years. Chitown Maverick, Teevster, etc. guys who go out and get incredible results. But newsflash to the mods: the most talented people in this world are divas and you have to learn to work with them. Take this from a professional recruiter who focuses on ultra high end talent in NY.

CTM was a good-looking guy in his 20s, living a relaxed lifestyle, not working long hours, and getting laid with girls in their 20s. I know from personal experience that this is not so very hard to do. CTM did not get scared away. He managed to get himself banned from this forum, something which is actually quite hard to do.

Teevster does get outstanding results, but he is also a bit too keen on online drama. He takes exception to particular posters and gets into massive feuds with them. He does, by his own admission, tend to over-react. Teevster did not get scared away. He managed to get himself banned from this forum, something which is actually quite hard to do. Why he was banned I don't know, nor do I know whether the ban is temporary or permanent. All I will say is that I saw him go through much the same process on mASF 6 years ago.

I would be happy to see both of these guys return and contribute, provided that they get less wound up about government conspiracies *coughCTMcough* and forum conspiracies *coughTeevstercough*, and just focus on the actual thing that we are all here for.

But failing that, we shall just have to muddle through without them.

But newsflash to the mods: the most talented people in this world are divas and you have to learn to work with them. Take this from a professional recruiter who focuses on ultra high end talent in NY.

I don't think this is a newsflash, and neither is it particularly accurate. There are quite a few guys here who are as good as CTM, and maybe a couple who are in Teevster's ballpark, who have managed to not get banned.

And while you might learn to work with divas, you certainly don't let them call the shots on an online forum, not if you want anything like a sane environment for everyone else to operate in.

Pureevil and ijjji are great of course, but when most posters are either newbies who circle jerk with limiting beliefs or blue pill guys who haven't seduced a girl in 10 years (you know who you are) then this doesn't make for progress in seduction.

How many posters here are actually circle jerk newbies? And guys who haven't seduced a girl in 10 years? That would be what, 1 guy? 2 at a push?

This is why a lot of posters leave. They don't get scared off. They somehow convince themselves that "2 or 3 people they don't like" = "most of the forum", and then they go off in a huff.

Oftentimes reading the posts here affect my mental state making me feel like getting laid is way harder than it actually is. Then I remember the crazy stuff that's happened to me over the last couple of years (foursome with two very cute NYU girls and my guy friend, completely sober within 30 mins meet to lay comes to mind) and I manage to snap out of it. Getting laid is easy, attractive people do it all the time.

I put it to you that it was posts on this forum that convinced you to quit Tinder.

Out of interest, is it still as easy as it was when you were doing Tinder? Environment and circumstance affect your success rates. So does looks and age. You might not be doing quite so well when you are 45 years old.

You are right, young attractive people do it all the time, often within their young attractive social circle. Congratulations to them for being attractive and living in a great environment. Couldn't have happened to a nicer demographic. So what is everyone else supposed to do? Cut their genitals off?

I've got some crazy stories of my own. They didn't just happen, and I couldn't rely on Tinder (didn't exist) or hanging out with the beautiful people (town of 50k people). I had to read posts on the mASF forum, sort through all the crap and the whinging, and try to make some sense of it all. Forums like this exist to help people like me. The cast of Friends can manage without (for now, but give it 10 years).

To the newbs I recommend checking out the articles on Girlschase which are all written by top PU guys with extensive and verified field experience and generally shutting the hell up about your limiting beliefs. That site isn't perfect but it's gold compared to most of the community. Stay out of reddit and other limiting beliefs circle jerk communities. And go try to make crazy shit happen, even if you fail you'll learn from the experience.

Sorry, rant over.

Kant

I'll be checking out Girlschase, but I won't be giving up on this place just yet.

[Skills360]

shameless derail: wowow! this is the typical case of "an artist die" then his music becomes valuable...

Chi! (nothing against the dude and no problem with him at all), was not as outstanding as after he rip is made to believe here...

note to self.. i am gonna get myself ban...(good for biz)

[pureevil]

instead concentrate on establishing a core group of guys who share pureevil's philosophy. There are easily enough guys on here to , and there is no reason why we can't co-exist with everyone else.

Injecting this philosophy is really my only goal in typing all this. I disagreed with Blackdragon on a fundamental philosophical level back on MASF, he even called me his "nemesis" in true dramatic BD fashion. He was into "easiest way to be happy" and I was into "becoming your best self." These philosophies take you in two very different directions in your approach to life and skill building.

Now I've swung back by 6-7 years later and found "easiest way to be happy" to be the near-exclusive philosophy on here. When I left MASF it was just BD and a couple others, most were "be your best self." And as a result I was seeing brilliant guys like Kant, who are young and TVA-level capable, posting as "POS" app gurus because they had no influence from any kind of "be your best self" philosophy and had instead been fed a series of what amount to rationalizations for not pushing yourself further. A generation of younger guys had come about being fed "easiest way to be happy," which I find to be an inappropriate philosophy for young people in development. In my strong opinion, younger guys in the self-exploratory phase of life don't need "easy" they need "best." Kant's now doing exactly what I thought he would do when presented with the philosophy that has historically produced the best most capable PUAs/seducers: loving taking on the challenge to better himself, so that for the rest of his life he has a complete and well-developed skillset to fall on. MOST eager younger guys would want that. Once life is set up and that eagerness goes away, THEN move onto "easiest way to be happy." That's old man stuff though.

I'm fine with whatever philosophies are out there, they can certainly co-exist. But I do think they should get discussed objectively for their pros and cons, without egos getting damaged. Anyone here feel free to point out the cons of "be your best self," there will be some there too.

I don't think everything is even all the time though, that's very PC. BD's philosophy is great for older guys who are busy and want to put minimal work into getting good enough ass on the regular, mine (the historically dominate PU philosophy, not so much "mine") is better for younger guys who's window of capability is still wide open to becoming amazing at a complete PU skillset which they'll thank themselves for for the rest of their lives. Feeding young, inexperienced guys the online game POS "easiest way to be happy" mindset is harmful to their development IMO. I think it needs to be said, spade a spade.

[Dude909]

Fuck it. I'm going out "sarging" tomorrow. There I said it, can't go back now. Expect a no action report tomorrow. You assholes.

[pureevil]

Fuck it. I'm going out "sarging" tomorrow. There I said it, can't go back now. Expect a no action report tomorrow. You assholes.

Hell yeah. A no action report is the first step in fucking two chicks you met 10 minutes ago in the bathroom.

[DNYC]

I cut my teeth on good ol' fashioned cold-approach PU, and I'm glad I did. I'd put on nice clothes and hit the streets with the intentions of picking up women. I did a lot of approaches and got a bunch of lays that way, although probably not that many percentage-wise if you compare to the number of approaches I did.

But here was the huge benefit: cold approaching hundreds of women exposed me to the entire spectrum of female interest, from "leave me alone" to "let's fuck right now," in a short time. It taught me to read women. I learned when to give chase and when to abandon, based on the cues women send. In the beginning, an "approach" might take me ten minutes. I'd open, talk, do some comfort routine, blah blah... eventually it got to where my average approach lasted less then 20 seconds: that's the amount of time it takes for me to pretty accurately gauge a woman's interest level.

... and that skill has spilled over into my regular life, and into all my game, no matter how I choose to kick it at any given time. My sensitivity to female signals means I rarely get shot down. I rarely hear, "no." I walk away before I do something stupid like bust an ill-received move or "number close" a clearly disinterested woman or "plow" for 45 minutes only to get nowhere.

Now I like social circle, where that kind of calibration is just the thing you need.

[DJ_Z]

My $0.03 (because i'm a baller).

A lot of this is derived from Gunwitch's SMMA course, and it is worth bearing in mind he is a member of this site, and arguably one of the top cold approach gurus available. So consider that my citation as I mix what I have learned from him with my own observation. The question is, do you want to have sex, or do you want to have sex with the hottest women you see? If your answer is the former, your focus is going to be on your social circle.

Social circle is easier, because you don't have to deal with getting over the proverbial hump of being a stranger. There is no issue of safety in her mind, she doesn't have to worry about how her friends would react to seeing her hanging out with you, because there's already some rapport. The risk is lower. However, anyone who studies finance or economics can agree with me that, rationally, with investments there needs to be a positive correlation between risk and reward. Riskier investments yield greater rewards. In the case of social circle vs cold approach, if you opt for the former you are lowering the risk and the reward. You'll have an easier time, sure, but you are limited to those women you meet through your social circle. Nobody literally knows EVERYONE. You are relying on opportunities coming through your friends, coworkers, etc. Basically you skip the approach and hook of any cold approach.

Cold approach is higher risk. You are a stranger to her, and you need more steps in order to seduce as you cross that line from stranger to non-stranger. And a lot of resistance is going to be there if you don't know what the hell you are doing. Plenty of times, I don't know (thank god I'm moving this weekend, more time to practice). The advantage is that you have a much larger pool of potential women to work with. Social circle gamer takes advantage of opportunity that presents itself, cold approach PUA makes his own opportunities. Risk averse versus risk preferential are the two sides.

However, from a pure mathematical standpoint, I choose cold approach because that risk doesn't come with a cost. I start at zero with a girl either way, and I may get much geekier with the math as I track my progress over the next few months. I swear to god if you thought Ijjji's flow charts were out there wait until you see me create a thirty page thesis with linear regression models. I digress (economics nerd ftw). A risky investment, you can lose money if things don't work out, the risk is a risk of loss that you compare against the risk of success. In pickup, there is nothing lost if you fail, aside from time. So the only cost is what you could have done with that time otherwise, or opportunity cost. If you couldn't have done anything better with those minutes, you lost virtually nothing. It's almost like Pascal's wager but without religion...which makes it awesomer. I would rather make it harder on myself to try to fuck all women I find attractive, than make it easier to fuck women who will be easier to lay.

Silvertree has pointed out before that, rather than people who prefer one attack the other, we just share as much information as possible in positivity. I tend to agree with that. To that end, my challenge to myself with my move and being out more will involve a lot of logic-braining. If you don't want to hear about drills, metrics, and scripted material that I will be putting together myself, don't read the shit I'm gonna be posting. I like freedom and choice too much to wait for someone to introduce me to a girl. I'll find her myself.

Peace

[Skills360]

I cut my teeth on good ol' fashioned cold-approach PU, and I'm glad I did. I'd put on nice clothes and hit the streets with the intentions of picking up women. I did a lot of approaches and got a bunch of lays that way, although probably not that many percentage-wise if you compare to the number of approaches I did.

But here was the huge benefit: cold approaching hundreds of women exposed me to the entire spectrum of female interest, from "leave me alone" to "let's fuck right now," in a short time. It taught me to read women. I learned when to give chase and when to abandon, based on the cues women send. In the beginning, an "approach" might take me ten minutes. I'd open, talk, do some comfort routine, blah blah... eventually it got to where my average approach lasted less then 20 seconds: that's the amount of time it takes for me to pretty accurately gauge a woman's interest level.

... and that skill has spilled over into my regular life, and into all my game, no matter how I choose to kick it at any given time. My sensitivity to female signals means I rarely get shot down. I rarely hear, "no." I walk away before I do something stupid like bust an ill-received move or "number close" a clearly disinterested woman or "plow" for 45 minutes only to get nowhere.

Now I like social circle, where that kind of calibration is just the thing you need.

^ excellent! that was the whole point of the post..

[Dude909]

My $0.03 (because i'm a baller).

A lot of this is derived from Gunwitch's SMMA course, and it is worth bearing in mind he is a member of this site, and arguably one of the top cold approach gurus available. So consider that my citation as I mix what I have learned from him with my own observation. The question is, do you want to have sex, or do you want to have sex with the hottest women you see? If your answer is the former, your focus is going to be on your social circle.

Social circle is easier, because you don't have to deal with getting over the proverbial hump of being a stranger. There is no issue of safety in her mind, she doesn't have to worry about how her friends would react to seeing her hanging out with you, because there's already some rapport. The risk is lower. However, anyone who studies finance or economics can agree with me that, rationally, with investments there needs to be a positive correlation between risk and reward. Riskier investments yield greater rewards. In the case of social circle vs cold approach, if you opt for the former you are lowering the risk and the reward. You'll have an easier time, sure, but you are limited to those women you meet through your social circle. Nobody literally knows EVERYONE. You are relying on opportunities coming through your friends, coworkers, etc. Basically you skip the approach and hook of any cold approach.

Cold approach is higher risk. You are a stranger to her, and you need more steps in order to seduce as you cross that line from stranger to non-stranger. And a lot of resistance is going to be there if you don't know what the hell you are doing. Plenty of times, I don't know (thank god I'm moving this weekend, more time to practice). The advantage is that you have a much larger pool of potential women to work with. Social circle gamer takes advantage of opportunity that presents itself, cold approach PUA makes his own opportunities. Risk averse versus risk preferential are the two sides.

However, from a pure mathematical standpoint, I choose cold approach because that risk doesn't come with a cost. I start at zero with a girl either way, and I may get much geekier with the math as I track my progress over the next few months. I swear to god if you thought Ijjji's flow charts were out there wait until you see me create a thirty page thesis with linear regression models. I digress (economics nerd ftw). A risky investment, you can lose money if things don't work out, the risk is a risk of loss that you compare against the risk of success. In pickup, there is nothing lost if you fail, aside from time. So the only cost is what you could have done with that time otherwise, or opportunity cost. If you couldn't have done anything better with those minutes, you lost virtually nothing. It's almost like Pascal's wager but without religion...which makes it awesomer. I would rather make it harder on myself to try to fuck all women I find attractive, than make it easier to fuck women who will be easier to lay.

Silvertree has pointed out before that, rather than people who prefer one attack the other, we just share as much information as possible in positivity. I tend to agree with that. To that end, my challenge to myself with my move and being out more will involve a lot of logic-braining. If you don't want to hear about drills, metrics, and scripted material that I will be putting together myself, don't read the shit I'm gonna be posting. I like freedom and choice too much to wait for someone to introduce me to a girl. I'll find her myself.

Peace

Dude, your mom told me you were a Type II error

Seduction isn't economics, you don't get hotter girls by trying harder - and ugly fat chicks aren't any easier. I actually made a regression of my results a couple years ago to prove it xD

However, believing it is true will definitely make it true - I.e. If you believe you can't get hot chicks because you lack some bs "skill" or if you feel you need to "game" that particular girl more than the others, you will much more likely fail.

Edit: sorry I wrote that a few days after reading your post and I realise that's not what you're talking about! I agree with most of what you said. However, I believe there is no zero opportunity cost of time spent. You could always be doing something useful, and if nothing else, socialising/networking by default. I've grown to learn that 99% of successful people owe a lot of their success to meeting and building useful relationships (yes even the nerds - social skills are what separates a billionaire nerd from a loser nerd). So from a purely utility perspective, social game is the best game there is - because time lost on pick up is actually not lost, it's been invested into building social circles and relationships.

[DJ_Z]

And if I am an introvert that doesn't want to network with everyone?

Remember that opportunity cost is ultimately subjective. I don't value networking the same way others do. I really have no desire to make a million dollars a year, or even have a huge circle of friends. I find it draining to, to use a cliche, walk in and try to "own the room." However, the math still applies, you just alter a couple of numbers for personal preference. If you see a girl, and your mind places having sex with her (multiplied by the chance of success, that's the EV or expected value) higher in utility than the next best option, you go talk to her. It's not so much about doing anything different depending on how hot the chick is as prioritizing your values at any given time with the opportunities available. And through practice, I believe you can develop the skills to raise that chance of success. I mean if you really don't care about being able to choose from any women you see, this is moot. I do care about it, though, it's a goal I want to accomplish. And I'm sitting in my new apartment now deciding what to do today to move towards that goal.

I opted to focus my response to your edit. I didn't see your original post so I assume the earlier points were all voided.

[Iron Tom]

benefits of cold approach
---far more versatile and autonomous than the other two, especially social circle
---by far the most powerful (in some respects the only) way to develop new seduction (and social) skills that you don't already have
---can be used to enter new social circles
---minimal risk of negative social consequences compared to social circle, while providing valuable exercise and nuanced feedback that online can't
---freedom!!!

benefits of online
---access to girls whom you wouldn't happen to collide with in person
---(albeit in a limited respect) enables filtration through much, much, much more girls to find good matches

benefits of social circle
---sometimes 'easier'
---can be instrumental for targeting hotties
---makes for a sweeter story if you want to get married

if any one of the three is master, it's cold approach. however, the other two each still have extremely significant, unique benefits that cold approach doesn't. they are all independently valuable