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  • #16
    Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
    UW and PE, I very much appreciate this type of feedback!! Its the type of feedback that is required for our PU concepts to improve!
    I am happy that it came across that way because I did not want this to be another of those arguments for arguments sake or to make the idea look stupid.

    Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
    -"Flamboyantly bashful" is a term I used before, to try to illustrate there is a juxtaposition at work here, and THAT is what pulls girls.
    -Two natural PUAs Ive known were my original inspiration, and they both conveyed a mix of "Girls love me" + "Im scared of girls"..
    -"Confidently timid", I guess...
    -This 2-layer'ness is something I tend to not think about, so I usually forget to mention it.

    OK, so going forward,
    -I need to stop throwing terms like 'shy', 'bashful', 'timid', 'coy' etc etc around so carelessly.
    -I need to try to find a celebrity or movie character who does something similar, to use as reference point.
    I think the celebrity thing can be a little weak in cases like this because one of the most beloved by women story lines is the idea that the hero and heroine don’t even like each other and yet life just keeps throwing them together until suddenly they fall in love. Of course in real life, your virginity will probably last a long time if you use that as your SOP. (Standard Operating Procedure for those not in the business world)

    I think the thing you could do that would help explain your ideas better is to put them in a context. Even if they do not always have to remain in that context, putting them there can help in explaining them.

    So in this case, if I understand it correctly, the duality and veneer like part is that we should not be truly shy in the context of unable to approach women, but to put this in my story earlier, I could have ordered the woman to sit down and then acted shocked/shy that I just did it.

    Duality is great for mystery and intrigue. I could use the bashful idea that way. Use that hovering idea, start talking to her, then if she suddenly turns full face toward or invests into the convo fully etc , suddenly go bashful. Then if it dies down to much come back and tease it some more. . ..

    Am I on the right track?

    Comment


    • #17
      Thanks UW you are so correct regarding the context.
      Yes, I think my idea is getting more through to you now! I shall improve the description further though, based on what I learned here!

      Bacchus, thats a nice quote from TTM. Thats exactly the type of description I need to aim for. I have a lot to learn from him, when it comes to conveying things like this. His 'medicine man' is a sub class to magician.. very interesting.
      Loves: Shy Girl-coding into Starry-eyed Extroversion, spamming Open-loops and Mini-cold-reads and lots of light kino.
      Hates: Putting pressure on others. Things that feel 'brainy'.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
        UW and PE, I very much appreciate this type of feedback!! Its the type of feedback that is required for our PU concepts to improve! Its very clear to me that my descriptions are lacking. Hence my feeble attempts to help with pictures. But its still very hard. I think the main points I fail to communicate sometimes, is that its
        -Ironic (stand-up comedy like)
        -Veneer-like (not even sure how to explain lol)
        Yeah as UW just said, and I said in my earlier post. . . we just need some context. You often seem to focus entirely on explaining a vibe, or the faces and looks you make, that are contrarian compared to most guy's experience, and are detached from any anchor into real world action.

        A movie character could help. Runs the risk UW pointed out but would be very helpful if you could find the right scenes from the right movies.

        Or maybe talk about what action you DO take. It comes off as if you don't approach, you don't lead, you don't talk or say much, you don't escalate, you don't isolate. . . what ACTION BASED steps DO you take? ("I puppydog" and ""I'm veneer-like" type stuff is not action, it's a heady description of a facial expression/vibe.) You cannot possibly not be taking any of the above action, or else you're fucking 1-3 fool's gold girls a year (maybe this is actually the case?? Hard to believe that though). So what action DO you take? What's a start to finish seduction look like? Do you ever approach? Do you go for girls who do not respond to "puppy dogging" type attractors, or you let them walk? In UW's situation (girl at coffee shop being somewhat resistant, but ultimately easily able to overcome by taking action displaying dominance and balls and leadership), do you let the girl walk if she doesn't approach you after you shoot her your looks? Or do you take action and get her to sit at your table, and THEN act shy?

        That would give context to everything. My other post in this thread is a legitimate attempt to put together the puzzle pieces you've dropped (it seems I missed the mark?), but in the absence of a clear seduction MO all these seemingly contrarian ideas (don't approach, don't escalate, don't demonstrate leadership, don't show dominance, don't be a sexual threat, etc etc etc) are mostly just head scratchers. Need context

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          Bwahahaha!!! Stolen!
          Interesting thread. Bashful works for me as "incongruent game". I tell women I am shy and they laugh. I guess my forward style, eye contact, etc, tells another story. At times I act over the top bashful (lowered eyes, averted gaze, stutter, blush if I can muster it, create awkwardness, etc. All these with tongue deeply in cheek. I also tell them I'm a virgin if they accuse me of being a player. Incongruence works.) But I have a feeling it's not the shyness IJJ is talking about. Or is it??? I don't get shy with "drop dead gorgeous" but there is a type that flusters me. With these I just end up acting way too serious, uninterested, high value, and inaccessible. Oh well! Maybe I should try shyness with this type.
          Not a macho-ego thing, but I get somewhat turned off by women saying I'm cute. It is a reversal of power and I don't like submitting. Also, about waking the huntress in women: I don't know what to do when I get aggressively pursued. I always reject advances that are too "ballsy", it just feels odd.
          ^ this is exactly what I do… and yeah the key world is incongruency, in other words you act shy and bashfull, but the girl knows you are full of shit and is totally the opposite…

          I also do this with playing “stupid/ignorant”
          Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

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          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Skills360 View Post
            ^ this is exactly what I do… and yeah the key world is incongruency, in other words you act shy and bashfull, but the girl knows you are full of shit and is totally the opposite…

            I also do this with playing “stupid/ignorant”
            Yeah for sure. . I do this with all kinds of feigned emotions. . you play around and have fun and everyone knows its all for fun and plays along. Maybe you cry, maybe you act embarrassed, maybe you act cute and bashful, maybe you act angry and overly aggressive (those two workout twin clowns you always post could do all the above in a fun attractive way, for example). . . its all in good fun!

            "But the girl knows you are full of shit" gives this stuff CONTEXT, you can then fit bashful or ignorant or puppydog into a context that makes sense for getting laid. Bashful then isn't the cornerstone of the lay in that case. . . cocky/funny play acting is the cornerstone of the lay (which makes sense for getting laid, fits into the context of an action-taking ladies man who lands himself pussy). That's what I'm trying to find here. . context.

            Is that what you're doing IJJJI? You seem to come off as if your bashfulness/puppydog/omeganess is genuine, that its who you are, and a cornerstone of your game, rather than a fun thing you do to cut up with a girl from a cocky/funny having fun place. If this is the case, that all this is genuine and somehow sits outside of how PU as most know it works, then I'm really curious about the actionable steps behind a typical ijjji lay, just for information and enlightenment's sake.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ijjjji View Post

              Regarding my own looks - honestly, Im really unsure myself!! The signals I get vary from very positive to rather negative.
              -Wargigs seem kinda crazy about me. To the point where I need to actively avoid them.
              -With hot girls, I seem to kinda polarize.
              -Also, a lot seems to hinge on me having a strong mood/vibe.
              -Objectively, I dont rate my looks very highly.
              -Several girls online have said I look good for my age. Not sure if means much.
              From this I can tell you are both very physically attractive in some features and physically "average" in others.
              A polarised kind of appearance, due to a mixture of strong and soft features
              Soft features can give the appearance of average looks because they communicate bleh vibes pretty well, strong features can give the impression of amazing looks cuz they work like antenna for good vibes.

              So it depends which "channel" in your appearance the vibe is using.
              But overall, I think your body suits your vibe, decently


              Some guys will feel all awkward as they do it cuz their look doesn't tune into it
              But you can actually help this with dyed hair, nice hair cuts, and a good outfit
              Also the gym
              Eyeliner (in culturally appropriate situations) seems to have the biggest effect of all makeup aids (this is cuz tension bunches up near the eyes, so it hides inconsistencies in the vibe your eyes project) but being in sexual haze does the same thing


              So wtf am I saying with "channels", it depends where blood flows, and where energy centralises in the face.
              If it goes to flacid regions it kinda just gets swallowed up (harder to vibe with a fatty face... also is harder when too skinny cuz it doesnt hold as well)
              When it goes to stronger features it looks cool.
              The blood pressure in the face, can be really blunt and create an avrage look, or it can be very thin and high pressure and give the skin a very soft feel but sharp look.

              That biological variation can make your looks waiver significantly depending on how your body is processing things in your environment.
              Often these things are honest indicators of "congruence", as bad blood pressure implies your heart isn't in it, while good blood pressure implies it is.
              Though, its obviously more complex than just blood pressure, it may have to do with ATP usage of cells or something sending detectable signals of vitality (like after going swimming, running, or the gym). But typically, biology can either get with the program, or not, and that'll affect how you appear, shifting your looks from like a 6 to a 10 (since a six is a six cuz biological signals are under the radar, a 7 is on the radar, and tens have a full bodied biological signal).

              A lot of times, the face follows the body, so if your posture and body feel is good, it'll affect facial stuff. Similarly if your body is all deflated, it'll affect the facial muscles to carry in the same way.


              I say all this to explain that looks are not entirely static
              What we all have is a MAX MIN or floor and ceiling
              If your floor is a six and your ceiling is around 8 - 9 - 10 you can assume you are naturally gifted.
              Some peoples range is like 5 - 7 cuz of certain body language, like hunched shoulders, and awkward hips.

              Its like one of those sledge hammer games at carnivals
              Sometimes you'll miss hit and only have so much effect
              Othertimes you'll get a direct hit, and IF yours dings the bell
              You are percieved as highly valuable for your looks potential (though people have to know this personally)
              If peoplle see this hitting it out the park state often enough it affects their brain chemistry to see you more like that
              If people see you sluggin about on your min a lot their brain chemistry will start to cap how they see your looks


              Point is, if you hit it out the park enough
              And I presume you do
              Then yeah you look pretty good to the girl


              BUT this isn't the whole picture,
              Attitude, how your body moves/flows, how you think, how you think of and consider other people, and connections all influence appearance too. Though on THEIR side.

              There are two sides to appearance, sliding scales, and features that highlight or obscure good features.


              But yeah ij, sounds like you got it good, sitting in a 6-10 range
              Which btw, implies you are probably an 8 just by talking to or interacting with a girl (cuz that rapport and energy shift, given a good vibe will get you there)
              You'd be like 6 out the corner of their eyes, then an 8 - 10 range when "hitting it" by interacting.

              If people observe you in sedentary states maybe they think 6
              But its disingenuous to not take into account the bump you get from even mild activity (acting frumpy in a photo or a mirror doesnt actually count regarding looks)


              Blah, thats a messy as fuck explaination but, yeah

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
                So it depends which "channel" in your appearance the vibe is using.
                This must be it!! I have seen a similar thing in some girls, where they may be like a 6 when there is 'no effort' and a sudden rise to 9 when they do certain expressions/postures.. Thanks a lot for this understanding!

                Originally posted by pureevil View Post
                Is that what you're doing IJJJI? You seem to come off as if your bashfulness/puppydog/omeganess is genuine, that its who you are, and a cornerstone of your game, rather than a fun thing you do to cut up with a girl from a cocky/funny having fun place. If this is the case, that all this is genuine and somehow sits outside of how PU as most know it works, then I'm really curious about the actionable steps behind a typical ijjji lay, just for information and enlightenment's sake.
                Omeganess the way I see it, is real for me.

                Most of the vibes I use in PU are emotion based acting (often with a hint of joking though). There is a brilliant guide to learning object focused acting, and I wrote about it previously. Its just a larger paraphrase of the two steps I always talk about though:
                -Create a vision
                -Aim to become it
                My action based stuff has been posted repeatedly already, especially in night game board.
                Loves: Shy Girl-coding into Starry-eyed Extroversion, spamming Open-loops and Mini-cold-reads and lots of light kino.
                Hates: Putting pressure on others. Things that feel 'brainy'.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
                  There is a brilliant guide to learning object focused acting, and I wrote about it previously.
                  Reference please

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Circulator View Post
                    Reference please
                    Found it - http://www.theatrgroup.com/Method/index.html
                    Loves: Shy Girl-coding into Starry-eyed Extroversion, spamming Open-loops and Mini-cold-reads and lots of light kino.
                    Hates: Putting pressure on others. Things that feel 'brainy'.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
                      This must be it!! I have seen a similar thing in some girls, where they may be like a 6 when there is 'no effort' and a sudden rise to 9 when they do certain expressions/postures.. Thanks a lot for this understanding!
                      Ah cool, there is more to it too, I just get uncomfortable talking about it at length for some reason (cuz it assumes somone really reallly gives a rats ass about how they look?)
                      But reason I have so many pieces of knowledge on it, is I study my own game from other people's perspective, and casually over time I built up an awareness of it.

                      The other big part of it is how to see how you actually look.
                      There are a lot of variables to consider so I can't go into how it works for everyone, but I can lock down what yours probably are.
                      The question for me is then, should I lock it down for you specifically? And I suppose, sure, why not.

                      Your look has a larger swing, but on the upper half of the looks scale, this is genetic, some people have this ambiguity.
                      When you have such a large swing (pure evils swing for example is probably half as dramatic as yours cuz his genetic features are less ambiguous) it means you have to come at "looks" a different way in order to track down what the "common perception" of you is. The mistake to make here is to think "am I a six or an eight, I can't tell" because it assumes there is no general fluidity to your look or the instinct in others to understand relativity in your appearance and for an underlying assumption to be made.

                      Just cuz you swing to a six, and more regularly with tougher girls, doesn't mean there is mounting evidence of strongly defined six traits, it actually means that people can be kinda unobservant and don't have a very good referrence library for PREDICTING your appearance. So while they might see you as a six they can only do so while slumbering along. Problem is, when you switch up to an 8 this can shock and disorient them, cuz its like an 8 appeared out of nowhere, and when a person is an 8 they create more of a need to be prepared, so a person will react badly because you act semi-unsure of yourself, look like an 8 but gave them no time to adjust before you are suddenly there. If you swing all the way up to a ten, they'll gargle and fidget and be like what the fuck is HAPPENIIIIING! Because you appear as a ten giving signs of interest and they justt cant compute it or how to adjust or react and biologically they must react or flee, so they flee. Kind of like people running from a friendly bear, the bear wants to give em a lick but they scream and run, cuz the bear is like "huh?" and doesn't realise how big he is.

                      Well when you have a big swing your looks work like this,
                      You will have a tendency to underestimate your potency, and thusly carry a "daftness" in your actions that penalises you because you lack self awareness.
                      This penalty comes in the form of a "vileness", usually it is mild, but people will deflect far at you in this way and it can cut into and affect you, if you dunno wtf is going on.
                      A lot of times people are so confused that they might consider flashes of you ugly, and be put off, while simultaneously looking over at you and being attracted. (yes it can be that complex)

                      So the question isn't are you a six or an 8, it is a question of what is this reality and dynamic my looks have?
                      And this is where it took me a while of casual observation to figure out how it works.
                      Basically, it is sort of like, an atom with two electrons, each look you have has an opposite spin.
                      Well, if these get all tied up flinging around the nucleus, different features move around and people can't see.
                      But if one comes calmly to the front, its like this beautiful apparition gliding into view, or justt a blur of average that isn't accutely looked at.

                      But let us say even though you are a blur, someone looks at you, do they see a six or an 8.
                      Here is where it gets trippy... THEY CANNOT look at you without choosing, UNLESS, they are capable of seeing the mixing chaos.
                      I've been able to see the mixing chaos stuff for a while, so, what I've found out is that, angular features are actually always visible as attractive even when buried under ambiguous ffeatures, so it is MORE objectively true you'd be an 8. Why? Cuz genetically speaking the concept of look is based on an analysis of a persons genetic fitness. So if it remains a genetic feature and isn't an illusion (and it does remain) it just gets disguised by softer features.
                      Therefore the frame becomes, "his looks soften down to a 6" which is actually an ADVANTAGE
                      The only part that isn't an advantage is the friendly bear scenario!!!
                      The fact you can appear out of the woods randomly and create sudden WTF JUST HAPPENED, iis a kind of objective genetic disadvantage that makes you more "exotic", or "tropical" in appearance. Which in itself can be a big fetish/turn on for many girls, but give you a kind of distinctness other girls might not immediately appreciate.

                      So what is reality?
                      Well, this exotic, strong featured outline, that can be soft, is the reality. To anyone that can untangle the web of reality.
                      But initially, you'll have a polarising effect, which can only be meediated if you are calm about your own appearances, and have a handle on it.
                      That will remove the bear scenario, and you will steep yourself in good looks like a hot tea, and the soft features can dazzle with a glint of goodness, or the sharp features can soften and calm a fast beating heart. In that way you can create a sort of trust with how you look. By being neither extreme and reduce your swing (containing it).

                      If you contain it, it works together better and you get more level results,
                      It depends on how good your control of vibe is though. But I'd assume, you have a substantively good look.
                      Impassioned, full bodied, meaty, clear, and without any real distasteful quality, just maybe a few shades of mood and appearance that trigger people on occassion.


                      I understand however, knowing the practicality isn't enough to full answer the question, so...
                      My answer is... people have a relationship with your look, that may quickly annoy them or screw them over, or decieve them. They can't process this look for a while, but it SUGGESTS you are good looking, which bothers them cuz they now realise they are getting less and less power over you, so they start trapping or laying mines to retain perceptual contol over your appearance so you dont just inade with good looks. Then eventually admit you have really good looks but with the caveat that you are a bit of a sadist, so remain wary.

                      Wtf does that mean?

                      It means you have an adorable but highly sexual look, and the ambiguity annoys them.
                      So theyd rate you high in objective adorableness and sexuality, and describe it as agonising.

                      Be stuck in a state of dissonant uncertainty.
                      And likely just attempt to steam roll over it and select one to focus on and drill into your head.
                      Then be annoyed that you bounce back out of their grasp into that uncertain appearance again.
                      WHICH THREATENS them.

                      So, your look, is partly dangerous,
                      Buut in a way they don't wanna say is badboy cuz they don't want to believe they have no contol.
                      You could use that if you wanted to torture them,
                      So they'd wanna attack you, scream etc
                      To bring you down a peg or two


                      So your appearance might be egoistic, good looking, graceful/goofy, and unconcerned
                      Like how a scarlet johansen could be described (shes goofy voiced, sexy, unconcerned, has an ego)
                      Or in a guy... Jon hamm?



                      But with a bit more swing...
                      You rest under his appearance then come over the TOP of it
                      So have this sort of "reverse swagger" that lessens the strength of definition and slightly confuses people and yourself

                      Maybe you are fatter, older, greyer, have different features, it is still approximately correct though
                      You just might lose a bit of status or class in the crossfire
                      Or you could have MORE

                      Just depends


                      The dissonance from the swing is kinda like sergio


                      I know that is abstract as fuck, but, he's fucking annoying but "sexy" right?
                      So that is the sort of exotic feel
                      lmao

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yeah its a bit of a swing/variance for sure. Im grateful that I have learned to force it up a bit, but noone can remember to do it always (But it is my auto response to hot girls now, which is good progress imo.)

                        Yeah looks are a somewhat awkward topic. But at least in the context of variance and vibe, I feel its almost like talking about posture. Because those little tensions that compose us, are the 'building blocks' for manifesting our vibes/emotions.

                        And similar to posture, beauty lies in a sort of 'freedom' or 'lightness' rather than something very 'strong' or 'rigid'.. I mean mona lisa style smiling, and things like that... or.. having a strong emotion while trying to remain composed. I tend to find that rather beautiful in others at least.

                        Emotion + expressive restraint.
                        Loves: Shy Girl-coding into Starry-eyed Extroversion, spamming Open-loops and Mini-cold-reads and lots of light kino.
                        Hates: Putting pressure on others. Things that feel 'brainy'.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Being shy and supressing smile sub-communicates that you have dirty but harmless thoughts. It is a way to bring sexuality to the table without freeking girls out.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            On Friday I was at a party and played a bit with "girl coding". I did not get any girl to approach me first but I felt, that at least what I did was some kind of useful.

                            I was introduced to two girls and then I remembered the girl code post and after that I started to set a frame of we 3 can communicate and understand us with out words.
                            It was activating my facial expressions and somehow it felt good. It was good for the time where we did not talk. This time we communicated via reading each others faces. There was a amusement value about it. And the girl seem to liked my grins and I felt that they were attracted to me.
                            (However we lost interest in each other because there was an escalation needed which I could not give to them yet. At least I think that's the reason. )

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The girl coding topic lead me to the idea of flirting, communicating without verbals. (I dont know if it is the same as you do ijjjji.)
                              But I think what I do is very cool. Somehow it gives me an extra confidence boost. I feel much more pretty doing it. not alpha but pretty. I just feel I have a ultry pretty face during the act. I make some girls smile just by looking and smiling and them. And I feel a connection with the girls just by looking in their faces. I also communicate with them without speaking, just by exchanging facial expressions. Maybe it's an illusion but I belief that most guys dont get it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
                                This must be it!! I have seen a similar thing in some girls, where they may be like a 6 when there is 'no effort' and a sudden rise to 9 when they do certain expressions/postures.. Thanks a lot for this understanding!

                                Omeganess the way I see it, is real for me.

                                Most of the vibes I use in PU are emotion based acting (often with a hint of joking though). There is a brilliant guide to learning object focused acting, and I wrote about it previously. Its just a larger paraphrase of the two steps I always talk about though:
                                -Create a vision
                                -Aim to become it
                                My action based stuff has been posted repeatedly already, especially in night game board.
                                Regarding your game, do you have any retention problems? I'm guessing that if girls see you as non-threatening and cute, they don't feel a player vibe from you, and as such have a tendency to stick around, perhaps to even take care of you, or some shit like that? Am I reading that right?

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