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  • Marriage. It's Possible.

    But probably not anywhere in the United States, or anywhere else in the Western world for that matter in what I have surveyed and researched.

    I write this post as not much is going down in the forum and since I got back to the U.S. I have been doing very little game (only 3 dates and one lay). But I wanted to still stay in touch with you all and provide any value that I might be able to offer.

    What I have came to realize and why I got into game is so that I could actually make a good choice with women, find a wife, do all that stuff. And while this may all seem funny now and especially after the years of game have showed me the hilariousness of this idea. Sleeping with married women, encounters with many many cheating women, lies, threesomes, deceit and a whole host of other experiences I had numbed me to finding a girl to spend a life with (hell this even sounds funny to me now lol).

    However, now I have had the experience that it is possible to do. Elsewhere. As the western world has become too evolved for its own good and turned itself into a matriarchy (a host of other factors probably contribute as well- competition, betaization of men, dominant women, etc.) what I have come to find is that if you are 9/10 (do all the right things say all the right things) and life is 9/10 (the right opportunities etc) and she is 9/10 (not cheating) then it is possible.

    What I have noticed in interviewing successful people and marriages is that they have this kind of 9/10 dynamic where they do all this shit good and so does their wife. These couples are also older and older these days which in my experience with women (a lot) these types are extremely hard to find. Don't get me wrong, I did find one in 5 years of game that would legitimately have a chance at being this 9/10 does everything right kind of girl. So with all this in mind, the odds, the time that it would take, the effort to expend, and everything else has to be taken into consideration. Not worth it for me.

    So, I look to overseas where I see the prospects as being significantly better. I never planned to fall in the love with life elsewhere and I would have gladly worked so that I was doing 10/10 things and creating great relationships. Granted I would have never gotten married before, knowing the untold dangers (told now BD and some other small independents), but I had always just thought that I had to be better, I had to do better, and I had to demand better from others.

    Then I went to South East Asia and learned that I was just fine. I could at any time have a new hot girl almost every day. And not just any hot girl, most who would do anything to make men feel good, who enjoy sex, who you don't have to spend hours at a night club to bed, and even more ones that are nice, sweet, and std free. And all this took 10-30% of game. It's important to note however that I wouldn't have been so successful had I not had experience dealing with LMR and MLTRs from before.

    What I learned in business is that you want to get the most return for the least amount of effort. So, I have found my new driving goal in game (first starting it was to find the one lol) or in life. I now have little interest in American or westernized women and would much prefer one that treats me great who I can replace without a year of game. To that end, I will likely relocate overseas in a nomad lifestyle until I find the exact place to settle down at. From there I will find a women that I want to have a family with, likely it would still be an open relationship, but would be even less risky than one in the western world.

    I do know that there are still some problems with this plan as women will always be women and men will also be men. An added issue is that in some countries treating can be as high in America or higher, though not a big deal as I wouldn't care that much. An open relationship would still generally be better to go with. Also, a few other things to think about, but this is a loose plan that I have now.

  • #2
    People always and everywhere respond to incentives.

    If a woman has a chance of fucking a guy higher value than she regularly fucks and has a low probability of getting caught she will always take the opportunity. Regardless of who it is. The only thing that can change is her odds of getting caught and coming across such a guy.

    If a woman can steal a man's money for the rest of his life and live comfortably, in a legal way, she will do so. As long as the legal framework is in place, regardless of how good you think she is at some point the incentive to.do this is just too strong.

    People will always be people and do what gives the highest probable benefit at least cost. Culture and personality affect the degree to which certain things are desireable and how much risk peoplr are willing to take on, but not this fundamental fact.

    In southeast asia the incentive may be lower to cheat and leave a (western) man because she cant legally take your money as easily but she can have a nice lifestyle pretending to love you.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's so strange for me to see this, after just reading my daily morning texts from my wife telling me how amazing and joyful it feels to be married and together. I'm in the US, I'm married, about to start year 6 with my wife, and our relationship just keeps getting better and better. I feel no fear, no mistrust, no emasculation or any of these other things. Man, being married to my wife is fucking awesome. I wake up everyday so happy to have her next to me and the chemistry is crazy, just touching her or being next to her is like being plugged into this pleasure socket with currents of it passing through both of us with every glance and touch. And the sex... jesus christ, I have to pace myself being with her, the damn orgasms feel like their ripping my soul out of my body. I had no idea how much sex could evolve and deepen like it has for us. Plus, she's my best friend and we create a lot of meaning with the things that we do together and work on. I feel so thankful for who she is as a person and I know I couldn't be the man I am right now without her being a part of my life.

      I dunno... I realize our relationship is the exception not the rule, but fuck it doesn't have to be. Shit makes me sad and angry... people are so fucking weird to each other.

      Anyways, in contrast to my experience, reading your post feels naive (treating the long-term compliance of non-western women as a constant), a bit lazy, and kind of shitty and shallow in that it treats women as disposable so you can have this efficiency and safeness feeling that you appear to crave.

      Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, I guess the most valuable criticism I can give you from my experience is that your focus and your motivation feel like a mixture of wanting to protect yourself, feelings of scarcity in regards to the quality of women, and comfort in not having to put so much effort into your interactions? Maybe you might want to examine those motivations and see if those are really the things you want to be having as the foundation for your life choices? Why do you feel like being the exception rather then the average is too much trouble to attain? Do you feel that way in all areas of life or just relationships? And if so why?

      The things is, it takes a lot of start-up effort to reach the capacities for exceptionalism, but much less apparent effort to maintain them. You expand and adapt, and the previous expansion becomes comfortable, relative to how tough it first was. I feel like all things in life are like that. What was once tense or hard, becomes comfortable, and access to further expansion becomes attainable.

      Comfort can be such a heroin for people. Sometimes it's the thing we have to resist most, especially when doing so protects meaning and potential.

      Maybe your post stems from the temporary feel that comes from being back in the U.S. after the relative abundance you felt out East? I can understand how the contrast could bring about lines of thought like this.

      Comment


      • #4
        It's so strange for me to see this, after just reading my daily morning texts from my wife telling me how amazing and joyful it feels to be married and together. I'm in the US, I'm married, about to start year 6 with my wife, and our relationship just keeps getting better and better. I feel no fear, no mistrust, no emasculation or any of these other things. Man, being married to my wife is fucking awesome. I wake up everyday so happy to have her next to me and the chemistry is crazy, just touching her or being next to her is like being plugged into this pleasure socket with currents of it passing through both of us with every glance and touch. And the sex... jesus christ, I have to pace myself being with her, the damn orgasms feel like their ripping my soul out of my body. I had no idea how much sex could evolve and deepen like it has for us. Plus, she's my best friend and we create a lot of meaning with the things that we do together and work on. I feel so thankful for who she is as a person and I know I couldn't be the man I am right now without her being a part of my life.
        I love hearing this. Amazing that it does exist. My question for you, what happens if shit goes sour? Say maybe that it isn't even your wife, something tragic happens and you have to move on. What kind of effort would it take to find something just like that again?
        Anyways, in contrast to my experience, reading your post feels naive (treating the long-term compliance of non-western women as a constant), a bit lazy, and kind of shitty and shallow in that it treats women as disposable so you can have this efficiency and safeness feeling that you appear to crave.
        I'm not sure that they are more compliant long-term. It has been said that they will do anything a man says or etc. but that's not really how I see it. It is true that they will do more for me in comparison to a western woman in my experience. I call this caring and supportiveness. They just do stuff for you and are there for you in ways that a western women isn't. This is based on experience in 1-2 countries in Southeast Asia (both first-hand and in observation), so maybe not a wide enough generalization.
        Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, I guess the most valuable criticism I can give you from my experience is that your focus and your motivation feel like a mixture of wanting to protect yourself, feelings of scarcity in regards to the quality of women, and comfort in not having to put so much effort into your interactions? Maybe you might want to examine those motivations and see if those are really the things you want to be having as the foundation for your life choices? Why do you feel like being the exception rather then the average is too much trouble to attain? Do you feel that way in all areas of life or just relationships? And if so why?
        Not at all it's why I posted and why I am part of this forum. As a younger man I do need the criticism with such ideas and appreciate it in all forms.

        Looking at my focus and motivation, what comes to mind is I have never felt more happy abundant, and satisfied with life. And this has been part of what I have wondered too, with more competition I would be challenged to be better, and I don't mind that, but for what purpose is being better useful? I have been challenged for years to be a better man, better at interacting with women, better at being a leader, all that stuff, and I am grateful for all of this, but this helped me to think that I was the problem. That I always had to be better. When was I going to be enough? And then in just a few weeks I was totally more than enough.

        The things is, it takes a lot of start-up effort to reach the capacities for exceptionalism, but much less apparent effort to maintain them. You expand and adapt, and the previous expansion becomes comfortable, relative to how tough it first was. I feel like all things in life are like that. What was once tense or hard, becomes comfortable, and access to further expansion becomes attainable.

        Without a purpose the struggle of growth becomes meaningless and the route to comfort takes its form. For what purpose would a man aim to be like Drake with hollywood 9s and 10s? Let's go spend a bunch of money and move to LA so we can become like Tyler and Julien, we will grow as men, challenge ourselves and become better, but for why?

        The end goal for game for me was always to find a girl to settle down with. I am not sure yet why this is. For some reason, I still have this compelling drive. Will it give me safety, security, or even love that I never had? Maybe I am not sure, but something in this idea drives me. Would you take the long way or the short cut if you knew where you were going? If the price was worth the cost of going the long way (maybe you enjoy the scenery of the grand canyon, then it might become worth it).

        Lastly, I think of it as putting yourself in the best possible position for success. While you made your way into a successful (so far) relationship, the odds are still against you, no matter how exceptional you are. One of the major things I have learned is that it isn't even about you, but where you are at.

        For years it didn't matter how good Lebron was. He could carry his team to the finals every year, but he would get beaten down and they would lose every year. When he finally stacked all of the odds in his favor and put himself in a better position a championship is what happened.

        Thanks for the reply, the challenge and criticism helps clarify my thoughts on this.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Salaam View Post
          It's so strange for me to see this, after just reading my daily morning texts from my wife telling me how amazing and joyful it feels to be married and together. I'm in the US, I'm married, about to start year 6 with my wife, and our relationship just keeps getting better and better. I feel no fear, no mistrust, no emasculation or any of these other things. Man, being married to my wife is fucking awesome. I wake up everyday so happy to have her next to me and the chemistry is crazy, just touching her or being next to her is like being plugged into this pleasure socket with currents of it passing through both of us with every glance and touch. And the sex... jesus christ, I have to pace myself being with her, the damn orgasms feel like their ripping my soul out of my body. I had no idea how much sex could evolve and deepen like it has for us. Plus, she's my best friend and we create a lot of meaning with the things that we do together and work on. I feel so thankful for who she is as a person and I know I couldn't be the man I am right now without her being a part of my life.

          I dunno... I realize our relationship is the exception not the rule, but fuck it doesn't have to be. Shit makes me sad and angry... people are so fucking weird to each other.

          Anyways, in contrast to my experience, reading your post feels naive (treating the long-term compliance of non-western women as a constant), a bit lazy, and kind of shitty and shallow in that it treats women as disposable so you can have this efficiency and safeness feeling that you appear to crave.

          Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, I guess the most valuable criticism I can give you from my experience is that your focus and your motivation feel like a mixture of wanting to protect yourself, feelings of scarcity in regards to the quality of women, and comfort in not having to put so much effort into your interactions? Maybe you might want to examine those motivations and see if those are really the things you want to be having as the foundation for your life choices? Why do you feel like being the exception rather then the average is too much trouble to attain? Do you feel that way in all areas of life or just relationships? And if so why?

          The things is, it takes a lot of start-up effort to reach the capacities for exceptionalism, but much less apparent effort to maintain them. You expand and adapt, and the previous expansion becomes comfortable, relative to how tough it first was. I feel like all things in life are like that. What was once tense or hard, becomes comfortable, and access to further expansion becomes attainable.

          Comfort can be such a heroin for people. Sometimes it's the thing we have to resist most, especially when doing so protects meaning and potential.

          Maybe your post stems from the temporary feel that comes from being back in the U.S. after the relative abundance you felt out East? I can understand how the contrast could bring about lines of thought like this.


          ^Similar to what i experienced, some issues start when the wife hit the after 30 mark, or when the relationship reaches certain amount of time(3,7, fill in the blanc, etc.... )

          So the key is to cherish and enjoy the relationship to the fullest, butttttttttttttttttt, and here is were i failed, knowing in the back of your mind, that women are dynamic and have different life stages missions and goals, and that if those change and you are not in sync with them, the relationship may be in trouble....

          So i used to talked, argue with poly dudes and experience what you are experiencing, again my mistake was to fall in the frame of "happily ever after" which is pretty much a fantasy and me knowing all the stuff i know, I felt into that frame...

          as pure evil says enjoy and cherish the relationship as much as you can, and if it ends just deal with it when it ends and move on..

          I was lucky that i never did houses, and bills or contracts together...This is another side effect(we call it betatization, but when we do not comply she also leaves, which is what mostly happens to me):

          http://www.girlschase.com/content/kn...hen-break-girl


          A brief illustration of the tamed man's relationship progression:
          Beginning (blissful) Taming (fraught) Boredom (grinding) End (painful)
          The relationship starts off the same way most do, with happiness, fun, contentment, and often even bliss. This is the "new love is true love" part.
          Next comes the taming. That's when women begin to push men for more and more concessions; they want their boyfriends to stop going out on boys' nights out; stop seeing their friends; stop doing things without them; see them more often, do more for them, and invest an ever-increasing amount in them and their relationship.
          Once a woman's tamed her boyfriend or husband though, the challenge dries up, and with it goes the excitement. Suddenly, things become boring, unchallenging, and predictable with him, and she begins to long for the excitement of early in the relationship... before she'd tamed him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Roosh's forum is full of guys that have moved to SEA, FSU, and Latin America who feel like you do. In general, they say that the Anglosphere + Western Europe have been ruined by feminism.

            There are many guys outside of the PUA sphere that have come to your conclusions.

            WIA

            Comment


            • #7
              Good points Tank.

              Weird that the saying "first world problems" generally means some stupid little irritation that one shouldn't be complaining about.

              In this case though we have the "first world problem" and its the worst one.

              Or is it?

              There are a lot of ways to prolong it and draw it out though and not in a bad way as that language sounds. In a good way you can keep a woman on the hook a lot longer, and have her madly in love, stalker moding you and such. I haven't had a woman breakup with me in ages now. I always end up deciding they aren't worth the effort to keep working. To maintain it requires a lot of self discipline, mental games and shit fuckin pimps wish they knew, which in my experience, makes me just say fuck it and relax and let it all fall apart every time so far.

              Handling that part of my life, gaining that power and choice has instead raised my biggest question in all of it though. Why "forever" anyway. It really is just is social programming in my book.

              Short term sex partners, fuck buddies, quick in and out of love over 5 or 6 months is where it's at anyway. The only reason to uproot and foresake white pussy forever (fuuuuck that man, I gotta have a Ginger a year or i'll start cruisin the high schools again ) would be the ease of slipping in to these. If you are coming from a frame of abundance and ability to get it, all you end up wanting literally 9 out of 10 times is 3 or 6 months of fucking any given chick anyway. I've had a lot of 5-10 months relationships etc and man after a year, I want the fuck OUT! I think that's where a lot of women these days are at too. It isn't that they are heartless evil western women, they just don't see the guy as being as special as he sees her after the initial chemicals wear off. If she isn't a Puppymonkeybaby, she can get a new guy and all new wild fun chemistry fairly easy herself. Most mid level puas, great looking guys, rich guys even can't replace the only dime they've ever had so easily in their own mind. If they were thinking 100% clearly they would go "yeah it was way better them first 2 weeks than the last month by a LONG shot, I should go get that again, just like I did with her, plenty of other women will see me just like she did". Instead guys literally lay around and cry and shit for weeks and months. I've had friends quit their jobs, yeesh fuckin wow!

              Women just get back on the "fairy tale of forever horse" a lot faster is what I've learned.

              I mean if it does last 5 or 10 years, from what I've observed it isn't passionate by any means. Those long haulers are in it for utility, joined incomes, shared hobbies, kids etc. Flip side in community you've got guys who haven't ever even ended a short term relationship with a chick, they've never even realized what is is to get tired of fuckin a chick in their life! They then try to make one last in to long term utility with chicks who aren't ready for it! They say women mature faster than men. They continue to do so in this way as well, and they see it for what it is, and end it, or start to hate the guy cause he is trying to make it last etc. That's what I see.

              I can't see that would change in Asia, except that the woman might conceal and/or control her promiscuous desires because that is still the norm there. Still gonna end up basically utility/incentive relationship, not passion or love forever or anything.


              Gun

              Comment


              • #8
                The chances of marriage success I'd imagine shoot up dramatically if

                1) the girl has traditional values
                2) she hasn't been brainwashed by feminist ideology
                3) low lay count
                4) is a good person eg) nurturing, caring, no mental illness.

                I've met a few of these types, and i think it would have been possible but the game itself is also very seductive and hard to say no to. Also these girls I find cap off at about an 8.. maybe 8.5. 9+'s are almost always corroded somehow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jack Gignac View Post
                  The chances of marriage success I'd imagine shoot up dramatically if

                  1) the girl has traditional values
                  2) she hasn't been brainwashed by feminist ideology
                  3) low lay count
                  4) is a good person eg) nurturing, caring, no mental illness.

                  I've met a few of these types, and i think it would have been possible but the game itself is also very seductive and hard to say no to. Also these girls I find cap off at about an 8.. maybe 8.5. 9+'s are almost always corroded somehow.
                  1 makes 2-4 automatic. Rarely will a chick reverse engineer that later in life, and of course almost could not with mental illness.

                  Same token if a guy is 100% honest with himself and he genuine wants a woman with traditional values... in reverse of the male social conditioning she has to be willing to..

                  2) be submissive and obey him without modern thoughts and ideals .

                  and he has to..

                  3) Be willing to give up fucking other women for traditional ideal of fidelity making a stronger relationship than passion and desire can.
                  4) Have to have no ego about his masculinity or lay count, or lack of sewed oats, in return for her not having mental problems or being bitchy, naggy etc.

                  He has to also indeed be a traditional values male, or she will feel the inequity of it and her ego will flare.

                  You all know i'm the furthest thing from some brainwashed white knight and everything but an MGTOW.

                  Gotta know the truth, women aren't doing this on purpose, and men aren't the victims here. This shit is going both ways with the failure of western "love", not because we ruined everything in some social way, but because we all took our heads out of our asses and analyzed the traditional relationship and MOST went "that sucks".

                  The roosh guys, the "hit asia guys", aren't enlightened they just wanna bang a bunch of Asian pussy with option to pretend to nail her down and have her submit and never get hurt again by 'evil western cunts' if they fall in love. The mgtows just cant afford to go to Asia and run away from the pain of getting cheated on by a white chick they might fall in love with, and in their case who wouldn't ever fuck them anyway, cause they wear a camo hat and live in a camp trailer and yell about women on youtube.

                  My take on any LTR shit, all about short term pleasure, then sadly once that ends, control and ego to 999 out of 1000 people and everyone thinks they are the 1 and deserve the other 1, and probably don't til they hit maybe 60 years old lol.


                  Gun

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gunwitch View Post
                    Gotta know the truth, women aren't doing this on purpose, and men aren't the victims here. This shit is going both ways with the failure of western "love", not because we ruined everything in some social way, but because we all took our heads out of our asses and analyzed the traditional relationship and MOST went "that sucks".
                    Yup, thats it. We also want the good old days though, make America great again type stuff.

                    Originally posted by Gunwitch View Post
                    The roosh guys, the "hit asia guys", aren't enlightened they just wanna bang a bunch of Asian pussy with option to pretend to nail her down and have her submit and never get hurt again by 'evil western cunts' if they fall in love.
                    Exactly.

                    The chicks from countries were whoring is a cultural phenomenon - they are the ones that convinced the OP about how much women in the West are whores? Thats just your dick trying to logic you because of the easy pussy, man. Sounds like a weird Far-Eastern version of one-itis to me actually LOL

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Supernova View Post
                      I love hearing this. Amazing that it does exist. My question for you, what happens if shit goes sour? Say maybe that it isn't even your wife, something tragic happens and you have to move on. What kind of effort would it take to find something just like that again?

                      I'm not sure that they are more compliant long-term. It has been said that they will do anything a man says or etc. but that's not really how I see it. It is true that they will do more for me in comparison to a western woman in my experience. I call this caring and supportiveness. They just do stuff for you and are there for you in ways that a western women isn't. This is based on experience in 1-2 countries in Southeast Asia (both first-hand and in observation), so maybe not a wide enough generalization.

                      Not at all it's why I posted and why I am part of this forum. As a younger man I do need the criticism with such ideas and appreciate it in all forms.

                      Looking at my focus and motivation, what comes to mind is I have never felt more happy abundant, and satisfied with life. And this has been part of what I have wondered too, with more competition I would be challenged to be better, and I don't mind that, but for what purpose is being better useful? I have been challenged for years to be a better man, better at interacting with women, better at being a leader, all that stuff, and I am grateful for all of this, but this helped me to think that I was the problem. That I always had to be better. When was I going to be enough? And then in just a few weeks I was totally more than enough.


                      Without a purpose the struggle of growth becomes meaningless and the route to comfort takes its form. For what purpose would a man aim to be like Drake with hollywood 9s and 10s? Let's go spend a bunch of money and move to LA so we can become like Tyler and Julien, we will grow as men, challenge ourselves and become better, but for why?

                      The end goal for game for me was always to find a girl to settle down with. I am not sure yet why this is. For some reason, I still have this compelling drive. Will it give me safety, security, or even love that I never had? Maybe I am not sure, but something in this idea drives me. Would you take the long way or the short cut if you knew where you were going? If the price was worth the cost of going the long way (maybe you enjoy the scenery of the grand canyon, then it might become worth it).

                      Lastly, I think of it as putting yourself in the best possible position for success. While you made your way into a successful (so far) relationship, the odds are still against you, no matter how exceptional you are. One of the major things I have learned is that it isn't even about you, but where you are at.

                      For years it didn't matter how good Lebron was. He could carry his team to the finals every year, but he would get beaten down and they would lose every year. When he finally stacked all of the odds in his favor and put himself in a better position a championship is what happened.

                      Thanks for the reply, the challenge and criticism helps clarify my thoughts on this.
                      No problem man and thanks for taking my response with a constructive attitude, I really appreciate that.

                      What kind of effort would it take to build this again if I lost it all? There is a difference between building and finding. Finding for me would involve screening for another woman who can put a similar amount of herself into building a relationship like my Wife does, and I can't say how rare or likely that may be, so I'll just focus on my part of the building aspect.

                      So, the first thing I have to say is I've never stopped building, which means my effort capacity when it comes to relationships has not shrunk from atrophy or degradation, but continued to expand. I'm way more now, then when I first started this relationship which should help me avoid a lot of the developmental stress I had to deal with as a beginner. However, instead of that stress I'd have new challenges to face, like dealing with the trauma of losing someone so precious and integral to who I currently am. Losing my wife would blow a big gaping whole into my spirit.. but I'm used to healing big gaping holes and traumas. I've touched both sides of life, the brutal and the beautiful and I can and will build myself back from zero, over and over again if I have to. In a less extreme way I do that already, by stretching my comfort zones and facing over and over again the places in me where I'm close to zero. Building them up, then protecting them, nurturing them as they continue to grow and inter-connect with my other sides.

                      So, regardless of the circumstance or the pressure and pain in all facets of my life, the effort cost will never dissuade me from continuing to build. I know better than to trust the two-step hustle of the comfort of surrender and I will never cross that line again.

                      I'm dedicated to that long road you mentioned in your post. I don't do it to be better than others or attain what others have, most of the time what they have is shallow and limited and I'm past all that. I have abundance, I am enough, but once you get past the stress of achieving enough there is an opportunity for deeper motivations that are not derived from the pressure to succeed, the pressure to measure up... I think you are fatigued from that pressure, and how it might express within yourself as a kind of self-castigation. Which is a very human and understandable state to be in. Anyways, those deeper motivations come from achieving deeper access and inter-connection to who we are. You get to create for yourself, rather than prove yourself.

                      How do I explain this? When you've worked on the long road as long as I have, the adaptations make the long road a pretty fucking amazing place to be. The shortcut road feels like shit in contrast, because on the long road you get to experience the manifestation of the development and expression of all the humble little things that a person misses out on with the shortcut road. I get to harvest the fruits of the full process over and over again, with it building and stacking in a synergy with every revolution of that spiraling pathway. Does it fucking hurt sometimes? Yes, it's as brutal as it is beautiful, but while I touch both sides, I also have the freedom of choice to decide what areas of those sides I build my home upon. People who stay on the short road don't have that scope of access, that depth. They haven't opened those doors, dealt with their firewalls and gained the keys on the other side. Me on the other hand, I happily burn and walk through over and over again, with as many scars as keys hanging from my hip.

                      Living like this gives me access to everything I want. And I want more than just success, the how of my success, the richness and meaning is just as important. So yea, I'll always take the long road for the things that are the most precious for me. I keep what I harvest on that long road, because it's internalized deep inside me and I don't take the short-cuts that would make those things dull and atrophy. And this sentiment is expressed in the quality of my Wife's and I's relationship. It hasn't dulled or atrophied, because I don't take short-cuts with her. Desire, appreciation, gratification, gratitude, humor, hope, love, passion, trust and meaning are all given the long road treatment.

                      Hopefully, that answers your questions. If you need me to clear anything up, just let me know.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jack Gignac View Post
                        The chances of marriage success I'd imagine shoot up dramatically if

                        1) the girl has traditional values
                        2) she hasn't been brainwashed by feminist ideology
                        3) low lay count
                        4) is a good person eg) nurturing, caring, no mental illness.

                        I've met a few of these types, and i think it would have been possible but the game itself is also very seductive and hard to say no to. Also these girls I find cap off at about an 8.. maybe 8.5. 9+'s are almost always corroded somehow.
                        Totally agree with this.
                        3) Be willing to give up fucking other women for traditional ideal of fidelity making a stronger relationship than passion and desire can.

                        I disagree with this, but only because I have had the experience of having a traditional eastern girl and having that open relationship. Don't get me wrong, I am 1 for 2 at doing this, but the miss I would attribute to not enough time together. My thoughts are that most will be just like american women in this regard, with the MLTR OLTR model. I will have more on this coming.
                        The chicks from countries were whoring is a cultural phenomenon - they are the ones that convinced the OP about how much women in the West are whores? Thats just your dick trying to logic you because of the easy pussy, man. Sounds like a weird Far-Eastern version of one-itis to me actually LOL
                        Not so much to do anything with whores or cheating or any of that sort. Women are women and as such they like sex and will get sex. For me, more to do with the effort expanded to get average rewards.
                        So, regardless of the circumstance or the pressure and pain in all facets of my life, the effort cost will never dissuade me from continuing to build. I know better than to trust the two-step hustle of the comfort of surrender and I will never cross that line again.
                        I guess for me it depends on what you are building for. And the purpose or reason that I have always found to do your best/try your best/become a better person is because you can. I see this slightly altered in that priorities have shifted for me. Whereas years ago, the way I could improve myself the most by being attractive. Now it's more so an emphasis on making money, as this has far better return on investment.
                        If you are coming from a frame of abundance and ability to get it, all you end up wanting literally 9 out of 10 times is 3 or 6 months of fucking any given chick anyway.
                        I would call right now definitely comparative scarcity. I haven't gone a week without a date back here, but I really have no desire to put any effort into these girls. Matches on tinder, girls in my daily life, my old FB, it all means next to nothing to me. I thoroughly admire your (#Gun) desire to bang hotties all the time, I haven't found this same type of desire in me. When I was overseas, I went on a rampage for all of a month. Then it was just kind of normal 1-2 girls a week.

                        And I think it largely is because of this unconscious desire I have for settling down or whatever (still sounds funny typing that). Maybe it just is society programming? Idk maybe it is something instinctual? Whatever it is is down there deep and still drives a lot of my behavior now, without even me thinking about it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
                          People always and everywhere respond to incentives.

                          If a woman has a chance of fucking a guy higher value than she regularly fucks and has a low probability of getting caught she will always take the opportunity. Regardless of who it is. The only thing that can change is her odds of getting caught and coming across such a guy.

                          If a woman can steal a man's money for the rest of his life and live comfortably, in a legal way, she will do so. As long as the legal framework is in place, regardless of how good you think she is at some point the incentive to.do this is just too strong.

                          People will always be people and do what gives the highest probable benefit at least cost. Culture and personality affect the degree to which certain things are desireable and how much risk peoplr are willing to take on, but not this fundamental fact.

                          In southeast asia the incentive may be lower to cheat and leave a (western) man because she cant legally take your money as easily but she can have a nice lifestyle pretending to love you.
                          My bad I missed this great response. Totally agree with this, in addition people are largely unaware of most of the rewards they are looking to take advantage of. Not really worried about the cheating thing, the more appealing thing for me is the character of women with little effort.

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                          • #14
                            Salaam I love your posts! Just had to not that

                            I believe this discussion is somewhat confusing the terms "marriage" and long-term-loving-relationship though. You don't have to marry to have a sustainable long-term relationship, in fact I suppose it is much easier to not marry and have one since marriage is based on a normative idea on how long-term-relationships are supposed to look like which makes it much harder to fit it to the actual needs of the people involved.

                            A few days ago I've read "The art of love" by Erich Fromm, a book which my gf had (partly) read to me about a year back while we were traveling around a little. It does have its flaws, but also a very interestingn thought, namely that love isn't something that just happens to you when you meet the right person (which consequently means if it didn't work out it was the wrong person and you just have to pick someone else) but rather an art, like painting, writing or music. He writes about how as with any art, love takes years of training to develop your skills to a master level, and how funny it is after all that so many people on "novice" level in the art of love complain how love doesn't work for them. It could be compared to the beginner artist who waves his brush a few times and expecting it to be the next masterpiece.

                            Around here some of the more experienced guys have made PUA, the process of picking up women, into some kind of art form where you can learn the basics, get feedback and progress. Love and relationships are quite another aspect though, one you'll have to master seperately. Some things are similar, but many are very different. Like writing and acting. Of course writing and reading will somehow help you if you want to become an actor, but you also need an additional skillset.

                            And then there's a part that I haven't taken from the book but that I'm experiencing myself a lot these days, and that is how the art of creating sustainable relationship has little to do with a builder's approach and much more with a gardener's approach. Most people have some fixed expectations about how their relationships should look, and they want to "build our relationship together", plan ahead and all that stuff. But relationships seem to develop much more like a garden, in which you can support or supress certain growth but not really control what's gonna happen. You also never really know what fruits you'll be able to enjoy over time, and have to expect winter times in which everything seems to be dead while in fact it lays dormant, growing deep under the earth, preparing for new growth.

                            And since relationships are much like gardens, you'll have to learn to find beauty in the unexpected, the mismatched, the chaos life always brings with it. Most relationships I've seen break apart broke because at least one of the partners couldn't bear seeing the other one growing in a way they didn't expect them to grow. They wanted those neatly arranged flower beds, not the wild truth that awaits in any man or woman if you truly look deeply enough. They couldn't bear the truth of their respective other, and thus couldn't overcome those last barriers that separated them, and once they encountered those barriers and found themselves unwilling to overcome them, they couldn't help but face the fact that they had failed once again, no matter who was to officially be blamed for their errors.

                            In a way developing this skill of nurturing love is truly an art because it isn't limited to one person but rather slowly shapes your personality in a very specific way. My girlfriend for example is pretty much radiating love towards anyone, even people she doesn't like too much. I'm way not there yet, but I'm practicing almost every day to get there too. I suppose Salaam's beautiful friend is a similar type..

                            Jester

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jester View Post
                              Salaam I love your posts! Just had to not that

                              I believe this discussion is somewhat confusing the terms "marriage" and long-term-loving-relationship though. You don't have to marry to have a sustainable long-term relationship, in fact I suppose it is much easier to not marry and have one since marriage is based on a normative idea on how long-term-relationships are supposed to look like which makes it much harder to fit it to the actual needs of the people involved.

                              A few days ago I've read "The art of love" by Erich Fromm, a book which my gf had (partly) read to me about a year back while we were traveling around a little. It does have its flaws, but also a very interestingn thought, namely that love isn't something that just happens to you when you meet the right person (which consequently means if it didn't work out it was the wrong person and you just have to pick someone else) but rather an art, like painting, writing or music. He writes about how as with any art, love takes years of training to develop your skills to a master level, and how funny it is after all that so many people on "novice" level in the art of love complain how love doesn't work for them. It could be compared to the beginner artist who waves his brush a few times and expecting it to be the next masterpiece.

                              Around here some of the more experienced guys have made PUA, the process of picking up women, into some kind of art form where you can learn the basics, get feedback and progress. Love and relationships are quite another aspect though, one you'll have to master seperately. Some things are similar, but many are very different. Like writing and acting. Of course writing and reading will somehow help you if you want to become an actor, but you also need an additional skillset.

                              And then there's a part that I haven't taken from the book but that I'm experiencing myself a lot these days, and that is how the art of creating sustainable relationship has little to do with a builder's approach and much more with a gardener's approach. Most people have some fixed expectations about how their relationships should look, and they want to "build our relationship together", plan ahead and all that stuff. But relationships seem to develop much more like a garden, in which you can support or supress certain growth but not really control what's gonna happen. You also never really know what fruits you'll be able to enjoy over time, and have to expect winter times in which everything seems to be dead while in fact it lays dormant, growing deep under the earth, preparing for new growth.

                              And since relationships are much like gardens, you'll have to learn to find beauty in the unexpected, the mismatched, the chaos life always brings with it. Most relationships I've seen break apart broke because at least one of the partners couldn't bear seeing the other one growing in a way they didn't expect them to grow. They wanted those neatly arranged flower beds, not the wild truth that awaits in any man or woman if you truly look deeply enough. They couldn't bear the truth of their respective other, and thus couldn't overcome those last barriers that separated them, and once they encountered those barriers and found themselves unwilling to overcome them, they couldn't help but face the fact that they had failed once again, no matter who was to officially be blamed for their errors.

                              In a way developing this skill of nurturing love is truly an art because it isn't limited to one person but rather slowly shapes your personality in a very specific way. My girlfriend for example is pretty much radiating love towards anyone, even people she doesn't like too much. I'm way not there yet, but I'm practicing almost every day to get there too. I suppose Salaam's beautiful friend is a similar type..

                              Jester
                              Love this post too. For a flower or any kind of plant to grow, it is not guaranteed that it will sprout or bloom etc, but what you can do is provide the best possible environment for the plant to flourish. An unskilled gardener can produce a crop, just as a plant can grow in hellish conditions, but if we want to be the most advantageous gardeners as we can, the way I see best to do so is to develop our craft, know about gardening and be skilled at it, then go to fertile grounds where you have the ability to produce the most/best crops. A gardener/farmer that wins long-term is the one that doesn't have one plant that that kicks ass, but one that has the ability to grow many plants that kick ass.

                              What I have been tossing back and forth is am I just being a bitch that doesn't want to man up in the face of scarcity and become a better man or am I really seeing no incentive to do so. I believe part of why america has been so great for the past many years is that its people, specifically men have been trained to become better and to produce more in the face of scarcity for the rewards of money and women. This comes in the form largely of men working jobs that they don't like, buying cars and possessions that they don't need to impress women that aren't worth it. It's my opinion that this competition has propelled this country forward in many ways, through society programming and etc whatever it has been a cause for increased production, advancements, and technology, but potentially at the cost of the happiness of its people, and now its the most drugged society on the planet.

                              I worked this job when I was 18. I hated it. I couldn't fucking stand it, but I had the belief that I had to endure, work hard, and show that I was capable of being a hard worker (this was my society programming IE. hard work=nice wife +money). I had another job at the time and made plenty of money, but when asking my grandfather whether I should give one or two weeks notice, he said, "Just quit. You hate that job anyway." Then I did and I was more happy than I could remember at the time.

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