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The female response model - reading the reality of womens "negative responses" better (when engagement or lays fails due to her withdrawing or stopping it at various points of the proces)

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  • The female response model - reading the reality of womens "negative responses" better (when engagement or lays fails due to her withdrawing or stopping it at various points of the proces)

    hey,

    a larger sticking point i have is to somehow move too fast away from girls when they "reject" me in various ways

    Recently ive learned theres so much more to this so this is a clean out part i wanna smartn up on

    a girl in a bar a part of a 4 set
    seemed very avoiding of me
    i ran basic SMMA - 2 emotional stimulators which she looked a bit in misery in response too
    in fact she seem in misery and a bit weird faced all the way through it
    but later her friend tells me super diretly that this avoiding girl wants to make out w me
    i had no interest in her but the observation was interesting.

    this wknd at a party i had so obvious interest from a girl but at the same time she was running away
    a craze i defined her as but just fun to note the behavior

    The insight is that often what i see as rejection is not a rejection
    its just their ways of acting in the light of intimacy being possible, maybe even as a way theyve learned to respond to lovers etc
    or many others

    these are bad examples as theyre radical but they point a dynamic out in this. More interesting is ofc. bithcshields, and shit testing as concrete beavhiors weve defined. But im just seeing more nuance in this and trying to capture a better understanding:

    its her reaction to something in a variety of ways:
    - uncertain
    - insecurity
    - fear
    - a concern of hers w guys
    - a concern of hers w social relations and society etc
    - a concern of her w her self
    - a reaction to something she misperceives about me
    - actually being atttracted reaction to guys (some chicjs fade and passify when attracted)

    also if we take it further it can be natural reactions to sexualarousal
    or it can just be slight moves in the wrong direction which means very little in the large picture

    also some times rejections eg i have a bf or i need to xxx w my friends are SOMETHING WE can proactively manage

    i guess the whole theme i m at here is about really getting girls variety of responses and understanding to understand the relaity of htis interaction and to see withdrawal type beahviors, agression etc as part of the process and learn to see the reality and adapt to it knowingly or just more relaxed.

    Im NOT looking for simple yeah just persist blindly type comments. been there. Looking for nuances to understand this better - your observations and nuancers on this

    thoughts?
    Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

    Glows Log

  • #2
    The way you wrote this, made me think of common issues seen in field reports where things stall out. The situation can vary a lot, but there seems to always be an underlying plot where the Cialdini sales principle of scarcity is being fully neglected. When I say scarcity, I mean it in the broadest possible terms. Any way shape or form, in which there is a perceived possibility that the 'option to buy' could be permanently lost.. Its a bit tricky to discuss though. People misunderstand scarcity to mean non-needy, which is very inaccurate. (And thinking so leads to even more stalling.) Some obvious and maybe less obvious things I find helpful:
    -doubts, insecurities & barriers
    -divided attention & competition
    -schedule/time

    That is sort of 'foundation' though.
    The real 'stall out killer' seems to be when you juxtapose the above with strongly emotional interest in the girl. (Both admiration/appreciation and horniness can work well.)

    Edit:
    Wanted to put some examples. My non-verbals cause some confusion, so let me share/illustrate with some simple verbals instead:
    "My sis and mum are always on my case about only dating shallow narcissist girls."
    "My cat seems to have a very good intuition about people. The ones she didnt like, turned out to be bad people in the end."
    "I was so happy my ex got a new BF last month, but then she drunk-called me again a week ago. I heard a new BF was supposed to fix that."
    Last edited by ijjjji; 1 week ago.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
      The way you wrote this, made me think of common issues seen in field reports where things stall out. The situation can vary a lot, but there seems to always be an underlying plot where the Cialdini sales principle of scarcity is being fully neglected. When I say scarcity, I mean it in the broadest possible terms. Any way shape or form, in which there is a perceived possibility that the 'option to buy' could be permanently lost.. Its a bit tricky to discuss though. People misunderstand scarcity to mean non-needy, which is very inaccurate. (And thinking so leads to even more stalling.) Some obvious and maybe less obvious things I find helpful:
      -doubts, insecurities & barriers
      -divided attention & competition
      -schedule/time
      yeah "the staling dynamic" is exactly it from what i experience with like 80% of the targets.
      well spotted!!
      i can overwrite it but i am trying to wise up and feel into the whole shabam.
      im quite sure it links to personal abadontment issues (can of worms stuff) that makes me withdraw as a trigger through an emotional high-jack.

      and this is due to a non scarce clinging i guess

      Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
      That is sort of 'foundation' though.
      The real 'stall out killer' seems to be when you juxtapose the above with strongly emotional interest in the girl. (Both admiration/appreciation and horniness can work well.)
      makes sense
      im sure she looses the connection too, feels the stall
      and this is the default response to it. And yes i have used this and seen it work several times.
      but thats repair work

      im sure the big fix is the underlying trigger of perceived rejection leading to stalls.
      Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

      Glows Log

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah man, this has been on my mind lately, more than ever (especially in relationship forming)

        I think a good way of going about this is, to re-frame most behavior as an IOI (not for newbies, but when you start to get womens minds more you can see which are real IOD or probably some kind of hint from her side)

        Common female patterns pre-lay I have noticed:
        - Distance to keep control of her arousal because she knows there's no way back once it's on (self-protection to make proper judgments)
        - Distance because she knows the game of tension and wants to delay (draw out the story)
        - Distance to see how you react (if you have self-control too, it's related to point above)

        I feel as if those three themes are related BTW and girls do it to make good calls on their side, and have a sexy story (narrative with build up and not just hook-up and feel cheap)

        I fucked up lately on the latter two themes, especially the middle one
        Gotta start thinking of my whole story from meet to bed, along the way, and not escalate on the day2 location too much, have her heated up too much... nah show restraint, like I usually am praised for and girls pick up on it..

        Post-lay it's way trickier, well almost as tricky when it's a non-SNL setting... like a girl admires you etc and not just craves sex from ya, but is trying to see who you 'truly are' kinda feels (I am heavily projecting form recent experiences, mind me :'))

        girls with throw out hints, baits, to see how you react... shit test... anger... hints for dates.. be cold because they dont know your commitment level, and thus refrain from being too warm (super logical duh)

        A girl I fucked half a year ago, was getting turned on next to me on couch, during sex talk and suddenly had to go outside ('the musics too much') and just went off LOL
        I didnt follow her or chase her
        Twenty mins later she still was outside, and I pull her back in the bubble and we walk, towards her tram, she # closes me, I later fuck her on day2, she later admitted how it wasnt necessarily the case the music was too much, or that she was sick (also sthing she mentioned lol), she was also too turned on and tried to regain composure. (Just one example)

        Yeah there's sooo much to think about! This above example was an obvious one, this stuff can go much deeper..
        Cosy had a great post on it a while ago, about girls who will prove to themselves how they won't need you ETC and it's exactly how a 6 month FWB dumped me (who was into me, she dumped from self-protection, her identity was threatened in some way by liking me too much)



        Comment


        • glow

          glow

          commented
          Editing a comment
          cool - i like youre three themes - and the make good calls angle makes sense.

          interesting to read your broader viewing of it pre-and post lay relationship wise. Broadened the picture a bit.

          The whole ego protection pride things is another key dimension i see them priotritizing from youre last point. hm...

      • #5
        I think this is a common sticking point in night game, and it's something that continues to baffle me. Everything seems to be going well, and then for no apparent reason, she turns away's, moves off, does something completely opposite to what seemed to be going on just 5 seconds earlier. I usually fail in these scenarios, as I immediately leave and approach someone else at the first sign of disinterest or rejection, but like you said, perhaps it's just her trying to reset. Maybe, the best course of actions is to just stick?

        I was out the other night, and I was flirting heavily with a girl who started playfully hitting me after I had slapped her ass. Not even a second later, she tells me to go away. I ignored her, but then she insisted and said that it would be amazing if we bumped into each other again later on in the night. WTF!

        The way I have perceived this potential need for distance is as a rejection, and when you are past the beginner stage, the abundance mentality trains you to move on. A couple weeks ago, I saw a guy chatting to a girl at the bar, and then he made out with her. Some time later, she turned her back to him and started dancing with her friends. I would have seen that as a rejection and just moved off. He didn't move a centimetre, and then half hour later, I saw them both leave together.

        The one and only ever time I physically chased a girl through the club when she was doing this kind of mini-rejection, I pulled her home. I opened her, we started dancing, she moved away. I followed her, and exchanged FB. I continued to follow, and she tried to run. I saw her hiding from me, as I chased her the fuck down. I then continued to chase, and then told her let's get out of her with a passionate speech. She submitted and obliged. Usually, I would see those kind of reactions from her as rejections. I've never since repeated it. Fuck knows, what got into me that night.

        I saw my friend do the exact same thing with a girl right in front of me. They spoke, and then she moved away and started talking to someone else. He grabbed her hand, and pulled her back into his space. They continued speaking, and every single time she tried to turn away, he pulled her arm back. I saw him do this about 7 times in less than a minute. Just sheer persistence. Eventually, a song came on, and they started dancing, and before I could blink twice, they were making out.


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        • glow

          glow

          commented
          Editing a comment
          ok, Sounds a bit like youre not leading things enough.

      • #6
        Originally posted by hey_lover View Post
        I think this is a common sticking point in night game, and it's something that continues to baffle me. Everything seems to be going well, and then for no apparent reason, she turns away's, moves off, does something completely opposite to what seemed to be going on just 5 seconds earlier. I usually fail in these scenarios, as I immediately leave and approach someone else at the first sign of disinterest or rejection, but like you said, perhaps it's just her trying to reset. Maybe, the best course of actions is to just stick?

        I was out the other night, and I was flirting heavily with a girl who started playfully hitting me after I had slapped her ass. Not even a second later, she tells me to go away. I ignored her, but then she insisted and said that it would be amazing if we bumped into each other again later on in the night. WTF!

        The way I have perceived this potential need for distance is as a rejection, and when you are past the beginner stage, the abundance mentality trains you to move on. A couple weeks ago, I saw a guy chatting to a girl at the bar, and then he made out with her. Some time later, she turned her back to him and started dancing with her friends. I would have seen that as a rejection and just moved off. He didn't move a centimetre, and then half hour later, I saw them both leave together.

        The one and only ever time I physically chased a girl through the club when she was doing this kind of mini-rejection, I pulled her home. I opened her, we started dancing, she moved away. I followed her, and exchanged FB. I continued to follow, and she tried to run. I saw her hiding from me, as I chased her the fuck down. I then continued to chase, and then told her let's get out of her with a passionate speech. She submitted and obliged. Usually, I would see those kind of reactions from her as rejections. I've never since repeated it. Fuck knows, what got into me that night.

        I saw my friend do the exact same thing with a girl right in front of me. They spoke, and then she moved away and started talking to someone else. He grabbed her hand, and pulled her back into his space. They continued speaking, and every single time she tried to turn away, he pulled her arm back. I saw him do this about 7 times in less than a minute. Just sheer persistence. Eventually, a song came on, and they started dancing, and before I could blink twice, they were making out.

        Sounds like your standard frame grab

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        • #7
          This is what i do (and i think i posted a lay report were they do this)


          what i do is let them get their distance/space and be in proximity, i dance and mingle (telling you cause you dance) and act cool but again tons of proximity, i may re-engage...(sometimes same process couple of times)

          but this is happening a lot with new clubbing/night atmosphere...

          it is expected i would label this it is new generation "shit test"...


          also i forgot teevester has a post called the hit and run that helps too...(look in his archive)....


          https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/ge...just-an-opener



          https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/ni...hange-in-clubs


          Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

          www.dancefloorseduction.com









          Comment


          • glow

            glow

            commented
            Editing a comment
            interesting dynamic - i honestly havent seen it at play - i hook very strongly so girls tend to stay glued and my mingling makes them glue on to me and im the guy exitting until i choose a target or they choose me and are sticky.
            but proximity solituon seems super - nice!

        • #8
          thanks guys - interesting variations of perspectives on it. ill chip in on your nuances later - but nice appreciated has already expanded my mind a bit which is key.

          just som other views on it i came across to nuance whats going on

          two others:

          1) Teevs has an interesting divide in HOf of the difference between rejection and resistance which gives an interesting divide along the lines of what im seeing
          https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/ha...ual-escalation

          What makes a girl often reject you is not the escalation itself, but the situation you are escalating in. For instance she could have sexual hang ups, be on her periods, have a boyfriend....


          There is nothing as escalating too much.
          If a girl rejects you because of the escalation, it's a good thing. That means she doesn't want you anyway. She will not waste your time.


          Being rejected for escalating too much is good. This means you are screening her out, because in no way you could've laid her. With rejection I mean receiving a "go fuck yourself perve" which is very rare in my experience. A bit of resistance is not the same as rejection even if most guys think so. A "no" more often means "not yet".


          Resistance VS rejection


          Resistance:
          _ Tries to go away
          _ Not (yet) directly receptive to your sexual vibe
          _ No mutual feedback
          _ Asking you to stop
          _ Turns things from sexual to playful
          _ Remove your hands away when you are trying to touch a sexual part of her body.


          These are not rejections, but only resistance.


          Rejection (never really happened to me, at least not the most extremes one):
          _ Go fuck yourself.
          _ Slap
          _ Goes away (more common)


          A rejection before it's gone at least 2-5 minutes of the interaction (or while opening Verbally/physically) is not a rejection to sexual escalation, but a rejection from your approach. Girls will reject for you approaching. But who cares? You got rejected for failing to open, not for escalating. Cool thing is that going sexual hooks a lot of girls.
          2) And cozy has a focus on their sort of AA from being approached that they hyperventilate on approach in relation to tension.
          https://nextasf.com/forum/nextasf/ha...234#post165234

          he writes specifically and with attention to details about the protective mechanisms of women and how to avoid triggering them - also other places.

          TBH, when I approach girls directly they hyperventalate(sounds bizarre I know, but they do), so usually I have to make it more innocuous by taking excrutiatingly small steps towards my introduction. So, you kinda have to be chill in the way you approach and gauge how much impact you are having and make sure to dial it back if its too much.
          The better you are at getting tension right off the bat the more steps your preapproach needs.
          3) The latter reminds me of LSE girls in the proximity of alphas - how they feel inferior due to noteable differences in perceived looks and attitude.
          i actually think that was what happened the other day for me with the girl who looked like a zombie where her friend tells me she wanted to kiss.
          she was struggeling hard with my attention and what i was doing to her w emotional sexual stimulation.

          similar actual styling and presence can make 6-7s skeptical and think why is this guy even talking to me?
          Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

          Glows Log

          Comment


          • #9
            A fear response (perhaps uncertainty too) is her reaction to you arousing her excessively. She's scared of what she might do.

            Couple this with forgetting to address her particular mental concerns (are you going to judge her for being a slut, what are her friends going to think, are you mature when it comes to sex, etc.) whatever they may be and you've got a sticky situation, not the fun-sweaty-sticky kind either. Luckily you can get around this consistently.

            What I do in situations like this is change my focus to social frame momentarily. Things like this don't happen once you've cemented yourself as "ok to fuck" from a logical perspective. And there are various frames you can set to reach this point, Cosy had a thread on this subject months ago.

            A lack of attention, say a girl isn't really focused on you. She's looking around or paying attention to other things like her phone or other dudes in the venue is a sign that she's not adequately emotionally stimulated. Dozens of ways you can solve this issue. Me personally, I'm fond of using state elicitation.

            Another issue that may crop up from time to time, is getting LJBF'd, a lack of sexual tension and arousal in the interaction. Again, dozens of things you can do to solve this issue.

            Basically it comes down to the three keys, usually one key isn't being applied properly or could be straight up missing. Here's a model Gun developed for troubleshooting pickups that I use: Is she bored -> emotional stimulation. Is she scared / frame grabbing -> social frame. Is she not aroused / LJBF -> sexual arousal gambits or vibe.
            “You know I cant hear none of that spend the night shit... that kumbaya shit”

            Comment


            • glow

              glow

              commented
              Editing a comment
              cool. i like the concretes you outline. one recent lay loose where i lost a girl was due to lack of attention. Dunno why i didnt see this.
              Good ones!

          • #10
            Classical shit test from dissonance
            the basic desire she has on a guy and what she wants in the specific situation - eg a party girl going to the club wants the hottest guy in there
            a classicl girl looking for the guy in power w provider options or a handyman
            perspectives in her mind about she wants /is looking for
            this aligns alot w her identity and desires

            so even if we come in if theres a dissonance we need to influence her more and be attentive to her underlying wants and how she may continually strive for them be in an inner clash maybe. or the traditional dissonance making her shit test us/frame grab dependent on our impact.
            Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

            Glows Log

            Comment


            • #11
              Originally posted by glow View Post
              Classical shit test from dissonance
              the basic desire she has on a guy and what she wants in the specific situation - eg a party girl going to the club wants the hottest guy in there
              a classicl girl looking for the guy in power w provider options or a handyman
              perspectives in her mind about she wants /is looking for
              this aligns alot w her identity and desires

              so even if we come in if theres a dissonance we need to influence her more and be attentive to her underlying wants and how she may continually strive for them be in an inner clash maybe. or the traditional dissonance making her shit test us/frame grab dependent on our impact.
              Nope, she is mainly testing for neediness and desperation and level of creepiness she wants to know you are indeed different and of course (she is looking to see if you crumble if she leaves you alone and go deep shit!), here is by cosy (she is somewhat testing for this also on a different level but mainly again neediness):

              She doesnt KNOW she isnt a slut
              She doesn't KNOW without any doubt at all that you are secret society
              She doesn't KNOW what you think about sex (maybe you are just fluking it, shes seen it before)
              She doesn't KNOW that you can operate on her level of thought (completely or to what extent)
              She doesn't KNOW if you can be sophisticated or intelligent sexually (or if you are an unguided bulldozer)

              in some other cases she is disqualifying herself cause she may think you are unattainable
              Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

              www.dancefloorseduction.com









              Comment


              • glow

                glow

                commented
                Editing a comment
                its basic Gunwitch framegrab reactions and doesnt counter what youre saying w needynesss but points to an important dynamic.Not sure why you see needyness - we tend to say its congruency shes testing due to the arousal one is generating.

                yes the other concerns cozy mentions she may have for 2nd gen verbals are good to be aware of - not shittest related but more things she will hold back going more sexual/forward due too.

                I dont understand why you relate it all to needyness - please explain?

            • #12
              Glow what happens is that most guys give in to them and follow them and stick around in clubs like sorry puppy dogs, that is what they are getting all the time, so when the new "shit test" that always happens now in clubs is that they will walk away (lets say to dance a bit with her female friend or male friend) and take the attention from you they are testing to see if you will crumble or go deep shit when she withdraws attention...(when i say walk away is kind of take the attention from you not walking away as in walking away)....

              i don't understand you describe exactly what i see in almost every club interaction, then you say "i hook really strongly" in your response to me when the post is about girls leaving you (rejecting but you know they like you)
              Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

              www.dancefloorseduction.com









              Comment


              • #13
                Skills, I think glow's last post was more about attraction based shit-test, and not about the fail scenario described in title.
                (I just felt you two were maybe talking past one another a bit.)

                With regard to seduction final stall/fail, I see it same as you though. (Maybe because we are both club guys.)

                Comment


                • #14
                  Originally posted by Skills360 View Post
                  Glow what happens is that most guys give in to them and follow them and stick around in clubs like sorry puppy dogs, that is what they are getting all the time, so when the new "shit test" that always happens now in clubs is that they will walk away (lets say to dance a bit with her female friend or male friend) and take the attention from you they are testing to see if you will crumble or go deep shit when she withdraws attention...(when i say walk away is kind of take the attention from you not walking away as in walking away)....

                  i don't understand you describe exactly what i see in almost every club interaction, then you say "i hook really strongly" in your response to me when the post is about girls leaving you (rejecting but you know they like you)
                  +1

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                  • #15
                    Originally posted by Skills360 View Post
                    Glow what happens is that most guys give in to them and follow them and stick around in clubs like sorry puppy dogs, that is what they are getting all the time, so when the new "shit test" that always happens now in clubs is that they will walk away (lets say to dance a bit with her female friend or male friend) and take the attention from you they are testing to see if you will crumble or go deep shit when she withdraws attention...(when i say walk away is kind of take the attention from you not walking away as in walking away)....

                    i don't understand you describe exactly what i see in almost every club interaction, then you say "i hook really strongly" in your response to me when the post is about girls leaving you (rejecting but you know they like you)
                    Well, This dynamic you describe "in clubs" is not a prob for me personally. i can see one of the examples in the op could be in this direction, not needy but run away girls. but its a very different thing that happened at a priv party with the girl running away. she did so from a sort of panic, not shittesting. And the OP was a lot broader than this dynamic, the previous post another shittest type described by gun and others. The thing i see is that I tend to see an uncertainty or a scepticalism in their faces or a fading from lack of interest display from me. Once and awhile i lose them from passitivity at certain times. Reading through all the suggestions made that more clear. what i experience its more of a fear or moving in the negative direction in the state change when i dig more into it and i think my problem is more in the direction of them fading along the seduction OR being too lov value in their perceptions compared to me. I think they assume a dismission from me.

                    it seems a lack of understanding my own impact on girls and lack of escalation interest display. But its fine. im realising these things now. and the dynamic you mention is not one i experience.
                    Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

                    Glows Log

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