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  • #46
    Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
    1) First, very often I would try to meet successful PUAs and wing with them, observe what they were doing, and generally try something similar. I would generally see two things happening:
    a) I'd do things exactly, or very similar, to what they were doing, and get entirely different reactions and results. Especially in the last several years, I'd follow the london daygame model quite properly, as I saw it, and would notice entirely different hook and close rates for myself and other guys. Even the same opener, a standard daygame direct opener, results in me getting blown out almost all the time, and for other guys hooking regularly.
    Now from feedback from these wings (as well as coaches, see below), I'm simply not expressive enough during the opening and the rest of the approach and that is a strong handicap that hurts my ability to hook and attract. However, I've done pretty much everything that exists out there to fix that problem, and wasn't able to, so concluded it was just an immutable aspect of my personality.
    b) Alternatively, sometimes I would try to learn some style of game but just wasn't able to. In particular, the RSD-style super talkative super-fun wildman kind of approach I witnessed as being extremely effective, and as much as I tried to learn good banter and so on, I wasn't quite able to replicate that energy, or become anywhere near as fun as some of the wings I've been out with.
    Then getting a sense of observation as to what sort of guys were successful, I concluded that in general women either want tall and model face or rich lifestyle businessman types or extroverted outgoing fun guys, or some combination, and since I was none of those things, it must be that my value is just too low for hot girls

    2) On to the point about making sure to follow the advice of others rather than my own perceptions of how things work and should work: remember I've worked with coaches before, who studied my infields and so on. My first major coach first had me rehearse the daygame opener several hours a week for a couple years because he didn't like my tonality. At no point did my blowout rate change despite all this time and effort. Please imagine it and sympathize that spending several hours a week for years on something to achieve nothing is rather frustrating. He also had me work very hard on banter. When I was working especially hard on it, I could get girls to regularly giggle and laugh, but also found that there was definitely a ceiling on how much, and in any case the more I was able to do it, I didn't improve my hook and close rates at all. He seemed to insist I need to be even funnier, and I worked on it some more, but eventually had a hard time getting motivated to keep working so hard on something when I didn't observe any differences in outcomes.
    Other coaches have also suggested to try and do various things, which didn't seem to have an enduring effect, or told me the same problems that I knew I had and can't fix (unexpressive, stifled vibe).
    This again led me to conclude that I have a defective brain that prevents me from adequately learning and executing attractive behaviors, and/or, that the things suggested make 0.1% difference, and by and large girls only want to fuck tall rich extroverts, and it's just a bonus if they're funny or sexual or anything.

    So I'm curious then where on the path from observation to conclusion I made a mistake in reasoning, in a sense an advanced CBT exercise, if indeed you see that I'm not making the correct conclusions and it's due to endemic issues of perception due to acute or chronic psychological disturbance
    You have probably been either trying to model a type of game which is incongruent with you, people who are incongruent with you or simply been exposed to some shitty low-IQ coaches. Most coaches can't teach IME.

    You should rather model STEM guys or introverts who get laid. Not party guys, extroverts, high energy guys, model guys, rich guys etc. Totally obvious to me as that was the route I went. For example I learnt a shitoad from Sleazy who is an introvert and not talkative at all.

    Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
    Well, I think the intention of the post was, "hey I can't attract hot girls. how much should I just aim for the 1 in 2000 shot for getting them vs. having occasional casual sex with girls in my league? what can I do to slightly increase that 1 in 2000 even if I can't become more attractive? how can I enjoy casual sex with girls in my league more?" which was never necessarily answered, as people here somehow seem to believe I can become more attractive. Which of course is shocking, but of course people have the right to discuss whatever ideas come to them and as they're coming at it from a perspective of trying to help, I'd like to be courteous while still bringing up clashes in what was said vs my experiences.
    Probably because you were asking the wrong questions and people would respond with answers to more reasonable questions. Like how to improve that ratio.

    Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
    Oh I know. The thing is as I said above, at a certain point it's no longer a matter of just good grooming, good hairstyle and cool well-fitted clothes. To get regular compliments etc. as far as I understand you need to pick a solid sexy stereotype that is congruent and slowly build up your style from what you see, which takes time. Also everyone says my "look" needs tattoos, which I've come around to, but need to save up $ for.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
    Probably wrong, at least I don't have this experience.

    Comment


    • #47
      Skills,
      Yes I'm still trying to find a good model for style that's my relative shape and build and has a cool style I admire and like. I don't know if you have any recommendations? I'm not so feeling the "classy gentleman" kind of style that is the typical PUA uniform now, and also a bit more suited for tall slender guys.
      I always have a fairly contemporary hairstyle.

      sparxx,

      You have probably been either trying to model a type of game which is incongruent with you, people who are incongruent with you or simply been exposed to some shitty low-IQ coaches. Most coaches can't teach IME.

      You should rather model STEM guys or introverts who get laid. Not party guys, extroverts, high energy guys, model guys, rich guys etc. Totally obvious to me as that was the route I went. For example I learnt a shitoad from Sleazy who is an introvert and not talkative at all.
      It certainly doesn't help that I don't see hardly any successful introverted STEM guys.
      But really my first major coach is a former-nerd, but he managed to learn heavy routine based MM game and then eventually the fun talkative silly goofy style. So he was quite introverted and technical, and he managed to learn this style, so you'd figure he'd be able to teach me, but no that is not the case.
      My other main current coach is even more similar to me.

      Probably because you were asking the wrong questions and people would respond with answers to more reasonable questions. Like how to improve that ratio.
      Well it would be good to know the answers in case I can't improve the ratio, which honestly I still believe more than likely I can't, as I really don't have any evidence to the contrary, although of course I'm willing to believe something out there may change it, but I have no idea what.

      Comment


    • #48
      Skills,
      I don't think "clean cut"or business casual is what I want to go for

      Comment


      • #49
        Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
        It certainly doesn't help that I don't see hardly any successful introverted STEM guys.
        But really my first major coach is a former-nerd, but he managed to learn heavy routine based MM game and then eventually the fun talkative silly goofy style. So he was quite introverted and technical, and he managed to learn this style, so you'd figure he'd be able to teach me, but no that is not the case.
        My other main current coach is even more similar to me.

        Well it would be good to know the answers in case I can't improve the ratio, which honestly I still believe more than likely I can't, as I really don't have any evidence to the contrary, although of course I'm willing to believe something out there may change it, but I have no idea what.
        Well if you look a bit around I am sure you find STEM guys or introverts with ratios way better than yours. Model them. This is your exercise.

        Comment


        • #50
          Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
          Skills,
          I don't think "clean cut"or business casual is what I want to go for
          what are you talking about????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCKRj5QdvA


          what is clean cut biz casual, what are you talking about? never suggested that... read the post and the links, that is why people get frustrated with you..
          Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

          www.dancefloorseduction.com









          Comment


          • #51
            sparxx,
            Well both my coaches are introverts. One managed to learn fun silly witty banter game and become successful using that, and obviously he tried to teach me that and I couldn't learn.
            The other coach is also fairly introverted but I guess he tried but can't quite seem to successfully teach me his ways.

            I don't know anyone locally like that. The only local introvert I know who does OK is rich and has more of a provider game, which is something that is a major turn off for me.

            Skills,
            That first video where he talks about the guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7InFE-v48
            he mentions he is going for a very clean cut look, with most business casual type clothing, with just hints of edge

            Comment


            • #52
              Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
              Well both my coaches are introverts. One managed to learn fun silly witty banter game and become successful using that, and obviously he tried to teach me that and I couldn't learn.
              The other coach is also fairly introverted but I guess he tried but can't quite seem to successfully teach me his ways.

              I don't know anyone locally like that. The only local introvert I know who does OK is rich and has more of a provider game, which is something that is a major turn off for me.
              Now you are again coming off like you are looking for reasons why stuff will not work rather than looking for solutions, and this gets tiresome for me. I have several important things to do this week and I do not have time for this. If you want more feedback you will have to pay me as I can't defend spending more time arguing with you or micro-explaining everything.

              You have gotten three tips from me in this thread:

              1) Become a doorman on a non-violent place (then you wear a uniform so fashion is not an issue).
              2) Sharpen up your fashion to the point where people compliment it with regularity (say at least half of the times you go to a club). I am not a fashion expert so find one.
              3) Find and feedback from STEM guys or introverts who have decent game.

              I seriously hope you will be able to pull this off and I wish you good luck!

              Comment


            • #53
              Originally posted by Tank_ View Post
              I'm pretty sure I generally implement things people suggest. For instance I definitely started dressing better after it was recommended.

              I think Bacchus seems to not feel like this as I've clearly and calmly described my experiences, but of course he can wachime in if that's indeed the case.
              No I disagree, just for the record. You don't implement much at all. It seems like you even refuse to implement the posting advice you've received in this thread.

              If you had a habit for implementing the suggestions of others, you'd have already been approaching stationary chicks, using situational openers and curiosity-inducing gambits instead of direct-compliment openers, which fuck up the social frame and field-testing NLP based verbal game for emotional stimulation.

              Which is, as I stated in the past, a far more powerful / effective strategy than trying to make her giggle a bit. I gave you this advice 6-7 months ago. . .
              “You know I cant hear none of that spend the night shit... that kumbaya shit”

              Comment


              • #54
                Originally posted by sparxx View Post

                You have probably been either trying to model a type of game which is incongruent with you, people who are incongruent with you or simply been exposed to some shitty low-IQ coaches. Most coaches can't teach IME.

                You should rather model STEM guys or introverts who get laid. Not party guys, extroverts, high energy guys, model guys, rich guys etc. Totally obvious to me as that was the route I went. For example I learnt a shitoad from Sleazy who is an introvert and not talkative at all.
                This. If I would attempt to be the party guy it might still "work", but it would be so draining on my energy levels it wouldn't be worth it.

                There's another issue that seems interesting which is connected to the above. You seem to connect what the people you model do to the outcomes, and rarely there's a 100% connection between the two. Sure, they are somewhat related, but with a way lower correlation.

                Far-fetched example, but I think it explains my point: Many so-called "Montessori-teachers" I know personally are trying to replicate what the Maria Montessori once did when she came up with her pedagogy by replicating what she did, by buying the "official" Montessori tools and all that. So judging just by what they do, they should have similar results as Maria Montessori herself. But they don't. In many cases, the reason they don't is they do what she did, but they lack the strong belief Maria Montessori had that the systems are there to serve the child in its development, not the other way round. Maria Montessori would never have compromised on that just to continue being a "X Method" teacher, in fact, that's the way she originally came up with her own method.

                Now in your case, you seem to be similarily following what other successful people do to the letter, but you're not allowing yourself to serve the situation and people at hand because you're stuck in what you think you're supposed to do. That would explain the "stiffyness" you stated earlier.

                Now with teachers, they focus on what they think they are supposed to do because they don't trust themselves to do the right stuff when they allow themselves to enter a flow and do what feels right. Do you trust yourself to offer a valuable experience to others (women) if your remove all the stuff you were taught you would need as a crutch to first get into that situation? Because if the answer is no, perhaps it would do you good to forget about your original question and focus more on how to change that deep stuff first.

                Just to give you an example: lately I've started meditating when out in my favourite pub. It just works really well for me there with all the loud music, and it's also a nice way of not becoming too nervous if I don't know what to do with myself. At first I sometimes felt stupid going out to a bar and meditating, but I trusted my gut that it felt right so I continued doing that at times. I was pretty surprised when a few weeks later a woman told me how she's massively impressed by me meditating around, how all her friends think the same, and from then on like 50 people independently told me something similar. Again, don't just copy what I did, it may not work for you, but copy the process: allow yourself to do what feels right for you and others at any given moment. This approach is much more scary than any routine you can learn, but it will really help you long-term in so many ways.

                Jester

                P.S.: Modeling what others do still is a very helpful tool to expand what you think is a possible behaviour pattern for you. So you can copy what others do to discover how doing the same feels for you, or make it easier to learn. But in the end the more sustainable way will be to carve your own approach that actually works for you.
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                • #55
                  Screenshot_20180314-064324.pngScreenshot_20180314-064450.pngScreenshot_20180314-064435.png Sigh, this is why I think you should look for qualified coaches when you wanna learn the 3sr mystery method stuff, tank your coach ,did he learn under mystery ? That's my coach ,if you wanna learn the 3sr mystery method stuff hit me up !!!

                  Comment


                  • #56
                    Originally posted by Skills360 View Post

                    what are you talking about????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCKRj5QdvA


                    what is clean cut biz casual, what are you talking about? never suggested that... read the post and the links, that is why people get frustrated with you..


                    Hey Skills360 - thanks for suggesting the Youtube video. Never heard of the guy before but I can totally see how easy it would be to copy some of his fashion ideas.

                    As for Tank I think his trouble is he is so far stuck in his own head he has little awareness of whats going on around him socially. This happens because he wants a magic technique that will fix everything, help him gain acceptance and avoid rejection. In this context there never will be any technique that will work as there is no social calibration.

                    It would be much better for him to think about who he is and just concern himself with projecting who he really is. If he did this he would spend less time in the moment obsessing about this or that technique and more time observing those around him. At this point he could then come across more normal and socially well adjusted and less robotic.

                    Comment


                    • #57
                      Originally posted by MarkA View Post



                      Hey Skills360 - thanks for suggesting the Youtube video. Never heard of the guy before but I can totally see how easy it would be to copy some of his fashion ideas.

                      As for Tank I think his trouble is he is so far stuck in his own head he has little awareness of whats going on around him socially. This happens because he wants a magic technique that will fix everything, help him gain acceptance and avoid rejection. In this context there never will be any technique that will work as there is no social calibration.

                      It would be much better for him to think about who he is and just concern himself with projecting who he really is. If he did this he would spend less time in the moment obsessing about this or that technique and more time observing those around him. At this point he could then come across more normal and socially well adjusted and less robotic.
                      please check the post here and the links i suggested to tanks (the jeans fit is HUGE, and i linked a video about the jeans)... Once the jeans are taken care off, a lot of the other stuff is easier (chelsea also is huge women love it)

                      Anyways, as of tank he is a very hard worker and he does follow most of the advice but yeah he is looking for it to work right away and that does not happen which could lead to frustration...He goes above and beyond what people give him credit for....

                      Though Tank does have huge "vive" problem and again i do not know if that is that easy to fix...(some suggest tre, i never tried that)

                      though he sound slike George Constance of pick up (seinfeld), in person he is nothing like that, we all come across different from how we are in real life in forums, and the people reading form different ideas of who we are, our game etc...

                      Though tank is extremely pessimistic and negative which does not help...

                      Pick up can make you feel like a god when you are succeeding which is an adrenaline rush and an invincible feeling..

                      But pick up due to the rejection and the lack of success can totally crush your soul and destroy you (just check the anti seduction forums those guys are suicidal)...


                      Also going tough both extremes having high lay count and success to nothing working again can be even more frustrating and demoralizing....(tank for example have over 75 lays)

                      In fairness tank does follow most of the advice and fails at it.... which is even more frustrating...

                      so when a poster say try this?

                      tanks says i already tried it (which is actually true)

                      Then the poster/s get kind of frustrated...

                      The thing is i question if tank actually does follow the advice 100% aka all the way....

                      I for example have probably more experience and higher lay count than most posters, but still i ask and totally follow the advice 100%, even when i fight really bad with the people given the advice...(i am not sure if guys like tank and sarge actually do that, i think they apply a portion and give up)...

                      Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

                      www.dancefloorseduction.com









                      Comment


                      • #58
                        Originally posted by Skills360 View Post
                        tanks says i already tried it (which is actually true)

                        Then the poster/s get kind of frustrated...

                        The thing is i question if tank actually does follow the advice 100% aka all the way....

                        I for example have probably more experience and higher lay count than most posters, but still i ask and totally follow the advice 100%, even when i fight really bad with the people given the advice...(i am not sure if guys like tank and sarge actually do that, i think they apply a portion and give up)...
                        Well he has done/is doing a shitload of things wrong. Some examples.

                        - Modelling guys who are not similar to him at all (extroverts, funny guys, tall guys etc) and complaining about how he can't get game to work when this is more or less obvious.
                        - Using the most shitty and powerless outergame that is. EVEN I DON'T GET LAID FROM SIMPLE BANTER. It usually doesn't work on some overstimulated hot millennial.
                        - Chasing moving targets (he sent a video to PE doing this).
                        - Not optimizing his looks and fashion. It isn't good enough to look fairly good when you are stuck.

                        Also he seems to be unable to take simple posting advice like:
                        .
                        - Don't argue with guys who have a 100x closing ratio than yourself (1 in 20 or less).
                        - Don't whine and complain and sound like a victim (nobody wants to help a man who behaves like this).
                        - Don't complain about how stuff will NOT work before trying your new advice with reference to having done it (wrong) in the past.
                        - Stop saying how game works when you have bad game. Or be very confident in stuff that is totally wrong

                        I tell him this and he does it again in the next post. It may actually be social unawareness but it is extremely draining to deal with for any instructor.

                        Comment


                        • #59
                          can't be bothered to read the whole thread but if it hasn't been mentioned before Todd formerly from RSD is an engineer type that does great that might be able to help you. check his stuff out.

                          different points of my game evolving the instructors i liked changed. Some people who really helped me before I find their stuff now pedestrian.

                          also I'm making assumptions about you but I'm pretty sure this is what you're doing. I recall that you had like lays like 80 or something. But you have some fantasy in your mind that seduction should be done in an easier way. So instead of being happy with your progress you compeltely stop ywhat you're doing which is giving you SOME results in search of greener pastures. Stick to what works for you WHILE also experimenting. You lose so much momentum start/stopping and lot of my best insights just came from being in the field not from a guru.

                          Comment


                          • #60
                            Originally posted by Jack Gignac View Post
                            can't be bothered to read the whole thread but if it hasn't been mentioned before Todd formerly from RSD is an engineer type that does great that might be able to help you. check his stuff out.

                            different points of my game evolving the instructors i liked changed. Some people who really helped me before I find their stuff now pedestrian.

                            also I'm making assumptions about you but I'm pretty sure this is what you're doing. I recall that you had like lays like 80 or something. But you have some fantasy in your mind that seduction should be done in an easier way. So instead of being happy with your progress you compeltely stop ywhat you're doing which is giving you SOME results in search of greener pastures. Stick to what works for you WHILE also experimenting. You lose so much momentum start/stopping and lot of my best insights just came from being in the field not from a guru.
                            the reason why instructors have change is cause stuff and social dynamics are not constant they evolve...-

                            1.- when the pick up industry started.... Mm/nlp and all that stuff first generation worked

                            2.- it came a time were natural game worked.- direct, physical better than original...

                            3.- was a time were screening/look amazing worked.... there were enough women out of clubs to make it work...

                            now we are back to a time were more of a indirect game kind of structure is helpful with millennials...

                            so there may be a danger in doing wrong methods at the wrong societal timing...

                            I can break down in 5-10 pages ^ why all of the above work at a time and now why does not work, and why some things work better than other NOW or in the PAST.
                            Sexting, my unique natural game, aggressive dance floor seductions, 15-20 minutes hook ups in clubs. Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a club type environment, check out my blog and youtube clubbing channel:

                            www.dancefloorseduction.com









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