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Lessons from My Journey 2: Knowing your Market

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  • Lessons from My Journey 2: Knowing your Market

    Hello everyone,

    I almost thought of not posting this, but since I promised this a while back decided to finish this second lesson from my journey.

    Ok, so now back in Stockholm again after a fantastic year in Copenhagen. Wow really loved that city, had a lot of fun with Teevster and some of his pick up buddies.

    Let me just say that I'm actually shocked by how people's own attitudes close themselves off from succeeding in the areas they want to succeed in. Or who knows maybe I'm just the weird "old" dude who does things completely differently.

    In one way, it's a bit tragic as I don't feel like I have anything in common with the majority of people in the world, including people on this board. This unfortunately brings down my motivational level to continue posting. Sad, but true.

    From the last thread I started here, there were some posters insinuating or hinting that I was backwards rationalizing not going after certain "10s" that I thought would be too much trouble. Not trying to insult anyone, but this just tells me that these posters are very young and/or have limited life experience with a very narrow closed off view regarding seduction and personal self fulfillment and then are quick to project and judge others by those very same parameters.

    Let me explain by describing what I've learned during my "Pick Up Journey" about efficiency and attracting women in abundance.

    Knowing your "market" and more importantly your "market value", Part 1:

    This may start to sound like I'm going off topic, but stay with me, I do have some important points to make.

    First of all, I am a business man. By this, I am always thinking in terms of efficiency and benefits vs cost. These were also the motivations behind coming up with the Asshole Rockstar, as I was tired of hitting up 1 target at a time. I wanted efficiency by hitting up the whole club floor (efficiency) generating lots of benefits (attraction & intrigue) with very little cost (effort).

    Not trying to toot my horn, but let me just say that I've done quite well in business and most people would describe me as wealthy and successful, I think Teevster would vouch for me on this. For example, when I travel, I travel for free and at "5 star level". Someone else is covering my expenses. When I was in Copenhagen, it was a Danish company that was paying for all my costs and I do mean all my costs including going out to night clubs, restaurants, golf etc. Again, I think Teevster can vouch for this!

    I personally did not pay one single Danish krone the entire time I was there. Why am I telling everyone this? Because this is how I "designed" my life & lifestyle. I live in abundance and don't limit myself. But what is important to realize is this was deliberate from my side, I didn't get lucky and have it all happen by accident, but I had to change my mentality to reach where I wanted to be.

    For example, one of the biggest differences between wealthy people and not so wealthy people is how they view money. Now, I don't want to turn this thread to being about money and becoming wealthy but I feel I need to bring up a few things to make my point.

    First question: What is your biggest asset? What is the one thing that is most valuable to you?

    When reading this question, most people would mention something materialistic like their house, car, bank account or a personal trait like their looks, body etc.

    When you ask a wealthy person, they will say their most valuable asset is their time. Remember this phrase: Money (material assets) is scalable, your time is not. What this comes down to is that not-so-wealthy people sell time while wealthy people buy time. This may sound strange but stay with me.

    What is your time worth if you were to measure it in money? Most people don't have a clue and have never thought about it. Ask a wealthy person and they will tell you exactly what their time is worth. My time is worth €200 per hour, every hour, every day of the week, month, year etc. Doesn't matter whether I am sleeping or in the office working or playing golf or sailing, every hour is worth on average €200. Remember this number, it will become relevant soon.

    If I want to create more wealth (money), I would focus on making more per hour via investments or scaling up my business. But I can't create more time so I have to buy it. For example, If I need to do my tax returns and it would take me 10 hours to do it, in reality that would cost me €2000 (10 x €200). This is an extremely inefficient and expensive use of my time when it makes more sense to pay some tax expert less than half that to do it for me while my time is better spent focusing on increasing my time value, e.g. making more money per hour.

    So enough about business, how does this relate to seduction: An easy "8" vs a time-consuming "10"

    If I'm in a club, and have an "8" that I could close within an hour(cost) vs a "10" that would take at least 15 hours(cost) with no guarantees of more satisfaction (benefits) than the "8", the answer is really, really simple for me. I'd take the "8" all day, every day.

    So I find it funny that posters on this board would insinuate that I'm "backwards rationalizing" due to fear of rejection or whatever, when in reality I'm RATIONALIZING THAT THE BITCH AIN'T WORTH €30,000! Yes, this is exactly how I think, why would I waste €30,000 or 15 hours of my time (cost) on this 1 chick with no guarantees of any better sexual satisfaction or relationship value (benefit) than the "8". This becomes even more obvious when I think of what else I could do with €30 000 or 15 hours of my time. For example would you rather have 15 different "8" women or only that "10", in terms of cost they are the same but the difference in value is ridiculous.

    The secret to living in abundance whether in women, money, luxury or whatever, is to never pay (money/time) more than the benefit/value you are receiving (benefit vs cost). You strive for the most benefit/value vs the least cost, like a house worth €1 000 000 but you only pay €100 000 when you buy it.

    Yeah, I know this doesn't sound like ground-breaking stuff and seems overly simplified, "logically & theoretically correct" but not very useful or applicable in real life. But you'd be surprised how the most simplest things tend to be dismissed because people think things need to be difficult or complex. I think most subconsciously dismiss the simple ideas right in front of their faces because they need to have an excuse for their failures and avoid feeling like idiots for missing the obvious, but let's leave that for another time!

    Ok, that was a long-ass set up, whew! I'll get into the main points in Part 2 in the next post.
    Last edited by Razorjack; 04-28-2019, 06:56 PM.

  • #2
    Part 2: What is your "market" and more importantly what is your "market value"?

    When I write your "market", what I am referring to is the type of women you're interested in AND where they are. This may sound silly, why don't I just say "local women you're interested in"? Simple because I want to remove all emotional attachment to "personal 10s" and women in general and bring a cold objective reality to it all. Hopefully everyone will realize why I do this by the end of this post.

    Your "market value" is how valuable YOU are to your "market" (those women you're interested in, inside your hunting grounds)

    For example, I'm mostly interested in European women with curvy bodies (not fat) and "model-like" faces that are great communicators and have a "sexual aura" around them, I have a particular weakness for tall blondes!

    I live in Scandinavia and my "market value" here is lower for the women I'm interested in compared to other "markets". There are many great looking women here but there are just as many if not more good looking guys. One of the first things foreign women say when coming to Scandinavia for the first time, is how many good looking guys there are here. From my cold objective business / supply & demand perspective, I refer to this as "a seller's market", meaning sellers (women) can ask for higher prices (more of my time) because there are so many other buyers (good looking guys). Even though I do better with women than most guys in Scandinavia, my efficiency level, e.g. "market value" is lower here than nearly anywhere else I've been.

    Now compare this to say when I was living in Japan or Morocco or Ukraine or China and my "market value" skyrocketed! This will sound ridiculous but the EXACT same European women living in these other countries were so much easier because I was now a rare commodity in these places.

    For example, several years ago, I was working in India and was invited to a formal black tie event with tuxedos and evening gowns at the Swedish Chamber of Commerce in Delhi. It was completely ridiculous how all of these smoking hot Swedish women (who would take a bit effort / pick up skills in Sweden) were all over me doing nothing. I've never done so little and had so many closes in one evening before: going home with one while others booked me for dates, asked for my phone number to call me up later etc. I was all of a sudden in "a buyer's market", where there are so many sellers (good looking women) that a buyer (me) can drive down prices (time spent).

    When I was living in Japan several years after leaving mASF, it was a huge learning experience for me. Within the first 2 weeks, I met up with Neo-Rio one evening and had a blast, (apart from one little "misadventure", Rio knows what I'm talking about, LOL! ) What I realized that evening with Rio is that he likes Japanese chicks and has great skills (no doubt!) but unfortunately I on the other hand was not so attracted to Japanese women. So my favorite places ended up being "hostess bars" where gorgeous "model-like" non-Japanese foreign women (European, Russian, South American etc) would work. It was so easy picking up my "personal 10s" here compared to Scandinavia. What was really funny was that in the Swedish company where I worked there was hot looking Swedish woman that I was interested in and when we were both in Sweden I basically couldn't get anywhere with her, but in Japan she was chasing me!

    What I'm trying to get to here is the environment and places that where you are picking up women is going to make a huge difference to your success as a seducer for the women that you are interested in. I'm not interested in "learning seductions skills or pick up game", I'm more interested in efficiently getting results. So if I were to advise my younger self on becoming more successful with women or money, my advice would be rather than spending your time trying to improve skills in the gaming environment you're in, you would see a huge improvement in results by simply changing the parameters of the game or the gaming environment, e.g. stacking the deck in your favor.

    People would be more successful if they evaluate and understand what it is they REALLY want. For example, I know that many will probably dismiss this as "gold-digger" pick up game or that this isn't "real seduction game" or whatever they want to label it. I would argue that these people are more interested in "learning to be a seducer or looking like a great pick up artist" rather than actual results with women. Yes, there are people like this. I meet them all the time, people who complain that making lots of money and becoming financially successful is difficult. When I explain to them that it's actually very easy following some simple principles and billionaires wouldn't become billionaires if it was very difficult, they dismiss is it as not realistic and couldn't be that easy. Then it's obvious to me that what these people REALLY want is getting satisfaction from working very hard NOT in becoming wealthy. There is nothing wrong with getting satisfaction from hard work but people become their own worst enemies and blockers to their own success when they complain about not getting results but at the same time don't realize that they deep down REALLY want something else.

    So going back to my example of an easy "8" vs a time-consuming "10":

    If I were single again, I'd still take that "8" all day, everyday! Because that €30 000 or 15 hours I would need to spend on the "10" in Sweden or Denmark would be much better spent by travelling to Japan, Ukraine or Hong Kong and picking up multiple "10s" there!

    The hidden side that most posters here will sadly never experience is that once you have had an abundance of your "personal 10s" in different environments your efficiency will improve with those elusive "personal 10s" in your original environment! When women realize that they are not worth your time, (no women will not be able to logically explain it, but trust me they pick up on the sub-communication) their attraction-level for you skyrockets!

    And THAT is how a "rusty" 48 year old like me can hook hot girls half his age in a Copenhagen night club full of young girls without doing anything other than saying "hi"!

    Ok, that's it, rant over! Go ahead, flame away!

    Comment


    • #3
      Great post!

      Thank you for sharing and taking the time to make such a well written piece.
      Last edited by glow; 04-28-2019, 06:12 PM.

      Comment


      • Razorjack

        Razorjack

        commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks man! It was great meeting up in Copenhagen, we'll need to do it again soon!

    • #4
      I won't flame, its obvious to me the set up the post is just cuz you expect a bit of disagreement, and what need is there for that?

      I think no 10s exist anyway, most girls circle back to 8s, makeup off or what not so its not a big issue and doesnt really matter to me.
      As for the business view, cost versus reward makes sense if you just want a certain amount of sex etc, and its clear thats what you want, so no probs.

      I'm curious why you think biz is easy though. I mean when you ride a set of opportunities it feels easy, but outside that it is kind of nonsense, delays, double speak, random shit happening, going through contracts, not getting enough sleep. Blek. Sure its cool to chill in a penthouse during a meeting with a client n stuff, but it comes back down to earth when you find out your ideas dont mesh or whatever else it is that is shady about it. I think its far from a sparkling clean fantasy ride, even when you are on top.
      That said though, I get where you are coming from I just like to stand up for the little guy hard workers, cuz... it actually is a bit backwards and people arent wrong to go a more stable route.

      I mean, cost benefit right? If you are stressing, not sleeping, etc etc, maybe thats not worth the money, people make their own call. A lot of people become cheaters, scammers etc, dishonest, fragile integrity. Anyways I wont go into it.


      So yeah, I think if you are just skimming off the eights, thats fine, just go for the greenest lights. Not need to push sooooo hard for like 20 years or whatever.

      For me, I find that knowing my market value makes stuff harder for me. As I reject a lot of unworthy folk putting pressure on the only few good chicks left. So I do the reverse when I think of market value.
      As in, why bother myself with 8s when I'll only feel decent with girls that excite me. So yeah.
      I get it though man,

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        I won't flame, its obvious to me the set up the post is just cuz you expect a bit of disagreement, and what need is there for that?
        Hey mate, thanks for chiming in!

        I don't mind people disagreeing with me, what I can't stand are when they form off their opinions as facts on things they have no clue about.

        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        I think no 10s exist anyway, most girls circle back to 8s, makeup off or what not so its not a big issue and doesnt really matter to me.
        Yes, completely agree that don't 10s exist and actually I don't rate women (anymore) which is why I put it in quotes e.g. "10"

        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        As for the business view, cost versus reward makes sense if you just want a certain amount of sex etc, and its clear thats what you want, so no probs.
        Actually I didn't mean only in terms of sex, reward could be different to different people. And no, sex isn't just what I want, but maybe how I wrote the post may have unintentionally conveyed that.

        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        I'm curious why you think biz is easy though. I mean when you ride a set of opportunities it feels easy, but outside that it is kind of nonsense, delays, double speak, random shit happening, going through contracts, not getting enough sleep. Blek. Sure its cool to chill in a penthouse during a meeting with a client n stuff, but it comes back down to earth when you find out your ideas dont mesh or whatever else it is that is shady about it. I think its far from a sparkling clean fantasy ride, even when you are on top.
        I actually never said biz was easy, I wrote that building wealth and becoming financially successful is easy. These are 2 separate things. I have an older mentor who does very well in this area and our first discussion went something like this:

        RJ: Yeah, I want to build up a lot of wealth and retire early
        Mentor; Ok, so what's your plan?
        RJ: Climb the corporate ladder and become a CEO
        Mentor: I thought you wanted make money and retire early?
        RJ: Yes, I do
        Mentor: Then focus on creating wealth, why do you want to become a CEO?

        Right there I knew I had a lot to learn.

        Wealth Building Rule #1: Prioritize your physical, mental, and spiritual well being - it's a lifestyle and way of living and needs to be sustainable where you must be able to continuously make good decisions in a clear frame of mind. If you're stressed or not getting enough sleep or have to deal with corporate nonsense, double speak and random shit happening, you are clearly doing things wrong and in an unsustainable way.

        I think you're referring to climbing the corporate ladder which in my opinion is the WORST way to build wealth for a whole host of reasons which I won't get into here.

        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        That said though, I get where you are coming from I just like to stand up for the little guy hard workers, cuz... it actually is a bit backwards and people arent wrong to go a more stable route.

        I mean, cost benefit right? If you are stressing, not sleeping, etc etc, maybe thats not worth the money, people make their own call. A lot of people become cheaters, scammers etc, dishonest, fragile integrity. Anyways I wont go into it.
        Sorry mate, but stability is an illusion, just like those "10s", it doesn't exist.

        I think you misunderstood me, I have zero stress and sleep like a baby every night, as I mentioned this is a requirement for wealth building not a result of it.

        This isn't aimed at you, but regarding scammers, cheaters, dishonesty, no integrity etc, I was at a corporate event a few months ago and was talking to a group of people. A socialist warrior, you know the type that goes on and on about eating vegan, saving the environment and how everyone who makes more money than he does is a greedy capitalist pig. (By the way, there is nothing wrong with being vegan, my wife is a vegetarian and I also try to do my part in saving the environment.)

        Anyways this socialist warrior (SW) sees my watch and the conversation goes something like this:

        SW: You know I can't stand greedy capitalists, they are a scourge on society.
        RJ: I completely agree with you, I can't stand them either. I'm a capitalist but I make it a habit to donate at least €100 000 to 3 different charities at Christmas every year (true, BTW). Do you have any favorite charities you work with?
        SW: (After a 10 second pause) Errr, no man I actually don't know any good charities, you never know if they're a scam or not.
        RJ: Yeah, that's true, you always want to make sure that your donations are going to where you want. So I bet you're more into volunteer work then?
        SW: (Deer in headlights)

        Guy was all hot air and zero substance, Don Quixote tilting at windmills but somehow feels qualified to offer his opinions as facts on things he doesn't have a clue about. I tried to avoid these sort of people like the plague, but not always possible.

        Wealth Building Rule #5: Make it a habit to always donate money, because you live in abundance and whatever you give away will come back to you 1000-times over.


        Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
        So yeah, I think if you are just skimming off the eights, thats fine, just go for the greenest lights. Not need to push sooooo hard for like 20 years or whatever.
        Ok, not quite what I meant, I'm not trying to justify hitting up "8s" over "10s". Most posters here believe that better seduction skills = hotter chicks. But this is only true until you reach a certain level then you run into the Law of Diminishing Returns.

        I don't pick up much these days after getting married and having kids, but this is what I'm getting at: if I were picking up, I invest a certain amount of time into a pick up, like 1 hour max 2. If I can get a "10" within that time, great I'll go for the "10" but if I sense that it will be time-consuming than it isn't worth it, either go for the "8" or get a "10" or several if that's what you want in a different "market" with a whole lot less effort.

        One of the main points that I'm trying to make is that learning more pick up skills isn't always the best way to seduce the "hard-to-seduce" women!

        Also, once you set some boundaries like giving yourself 1 hour to pick up then it forces you to focus the mind and do things much more efficiently and in ways that you may never have thought of before.

        And yes, even learning skills like building wealth can be applied to seduction or any other area you wish to succeed in.

        Hopefully that made sense!

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Razorjack View Post


          Ok, not quite what I meant, I'm not trying to justify hitting up "8s" over "10s". Most posters here believe that better seduction skills = hotter chicks. But this is only true until you reach a certain level then you run into the Law of Diminishing Returns.
          Jack i have been making a lot of similar point through the years, however i kind disagree with you, but maybe is just semantics... Better seduction skills= less mistakes= you come across more attractive... But then yes i have made the point and repeatedly posted a million times in the forum what i think you are trying to say which is this:

          .In the beginning picking up women can be a science, but the better you get, the more it becomes an art. Once guys pass a certain threshold or so, the only thing that differentiates them is style. This style is based mostly on your personality and what types of women you like. Improvement only exists in adapting your objective skill-set to your subjective desires. Any sort of “next step” is actually more of a lateral movement, rather than moving up.

          Beyond getting the first couple lays, quantifying “game” in any sense approaches the impossible — completely subjective and any arguments about skill-levels, quality, consistency, or styles is arguing past one another — like claiming heavy metal is better than rap just because… well, just because.

          Over the years, I’ve dated women that other guys think are hideous. I’ve dated women that guys who don’t know me literally come up to me in bars and give me high fives when she’s not looking. There are a lot of women that most guys consider “hot” that I have absolutely no interest in, and vice-versa.

          What I’m getting at, is once you become consistent, the only real metric for “success” is your own satisfaction. We’re always playing a numbers game, and once you get your % up to 1/10 or above, really any objective measure of skill kind of becomes pointless.

          Once your % passes that magic threshold, it’s really just a matter of how much time and effort you’re willing to dump into your sex life. Some of us dump a lot of time and effort. Most don’t.

          For this reason, the idea of “who is the best?” Or who can close the most consistently, or who has the best club game, the best day game, etc. — it’s a bunch of nonsense and as my friend Doc used to say, “Dick crack.” It gets a bunch of competitive and horny guys and their egos excited. But at the end of the day, whether I can lay a girl in 50 minutes and you need two dates is pointless. If my girl has a 9 body and a 5 face and yours has a 6 body and 8 face is pointless.





          I don't pick up much these days after getting married and having kids, but this is what I'm getting at: if I were picking up, I invest a certain amount of time into a pick up, like 1 hour max 2. If I can get a "10" within that time, great I'll go for the "10" but if I sense that it will be time-consuming than it isn't worth it, either go for the "8" or get a "10" or several if that's what you want in a different "market" with a whole lot less effort.

          Well must guys run their night similar, even some of the guys you are disagreeing with.... If the girl is lets say a 10 he may stay in set and give a bit more effort cause is not diminishing returns he will get a better return on investment if based on experience he is going to get her, if he for somewhatever reason think is not going go down after certain time based on experience he will exchange info and bounced,,, this is not limited to 10s but 9s 8s etc... i think todd has a great video explaining how is done more or less:

          jump to minute 8:00 were he covers expected vaule:




          One of the main points that I'm trying to make is that learning more pick up skills isn't always the best way to seduce the "hard-to-seduce" women!

          .
          I made the point that yes, once you reach a certain level the best strategy is not to learn more pick up skills but to yes, how the boundaries, polarize and present yourself 100% who you are, but keeping in mind based on experience what are the highest behavioral odds, and that you will miss out on some women but the ones you get will really be into you...

          i would argue jack and disagree a bit, is that there are some societal changes and in some instances you have to revise (no overly complicated) but you do have to make some changes and improvement and learn a bit things that are working...

          when you were doing pick up pre-marriage there are certain things in game that have changed (for example in us, the dtf women that went to clubs have moved online, they come out but not as much as before)... so physical club game has gone down a bit for example with mileneal and generation z.....

          The way clubs are design are less dance floor for example, more vip room... All of these changes present challenges, were you got a go back and re-learn, or adjust certain things in other words you may have to come back and refine some pick up skills....


          same in ufc, instead of learning jujitsu which would give you highest oddss.... mma fighters now a days need to be well rounded were in the past with jujitsu they would be fine, not so as things change... I know weird analogy but most of you would understand.

          Comment


          • Razorjack

            Razorjack

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Hey Skills!

            You make some good points!

            Yes, we are pretty much in agreement and I don't think we have disagreements we are just saying different things.

            If I understand you correctly, you are saying that things like hot chicks going to clubs has changed to online etc. I'm not disagreeing with you, you are probably right. What I am saying is that were I to play the seduction game now, I don't think I would need to re-learn old seduction skills or to learn any new online seduction skills, instead I would change the rules of the game to suit me!

        • #7
          Ok, I do suck at explaining things related to seduction. Seems like my point didn't really get through. So I'll give it another go.

          Let's try a thought experiment:

          Suppose you are in your favorite night club and you see the hottest woman there, you've seen her there before, she may not be every guy's personal "10" but she is high caliber. This venue also has a ton of good looking high status guys that come here as well. This woman is constantly approached by these good looking high status guys all the time all through out the night, but she jokes around and blows them off one after another.

          She just blows off one guy and you take the opportunity to approach her before another guy does. You run your game and she's slightly intrigued but is still elusive and you can't get any further with her and she continues flirting with other guys. You leave scratching your head wondering where you screwed up and what you would need to improve in your seduction skills.

          Fast forward a week later, you decide to try a new venue that you've never been to before. Unfortunately you've been busy with work all week so you didn't get any time to improve your seduction skills. As you look look around the venue, you notice this place is full of ugly creepy looking guys but gorgeous women. And lo and behold you happen to see that hot chick from last week at this place, but this time she has no guys approaching her also there are other girls just as hot if not hotter than her in the venue. So this hot chick now approaches and hits you up and is interested in being with you the whole night.

          What just happened?

          On the 3rd weekend, you go back to the first venue and it's nearly a repeat of the first week the hot chick that was interested in you last week is now being chased by all the good looking high status guys again and while she wants to talk to you, she is constantly distracted by all the other guys the whole night.

          Did your seduction skills just skyrocket instantly and then come crashing back down again? No the parameters of the game changed or what I referred to above as the "market" started out against you and then into your favor then shifted against you.

          The 4th weekend, you decide to go back to the 2nd venue and you get hit on by another high caliber "10". Now you are able to score a higher caliber of women at this 2nd venue than you were able to and with much less effort than in the 1st venue and without improving your seduction skills,

          Is this possible? Yes it is.

          Now for the provocative questions:
          1. Are you still a true seducer / pick up artist? I mean after all you couldn't pick up the hot girl in the 1st venue?
          2. Is the hot girl now still a "10"? After all she wasn't the hottest girl in the 2nd venue?

          Comment


          • thecostofsuccess

            thecostofsuccess

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            Editing a comment
            Ha Im very aware of that phenomenon myself
            Yeah I just relax when things are on hard mode, and relax when on easy mode too
            xP

        • #8
          Using time as a measuring stick is a good idea, I might apply it myself. Here and there. Glad you don't only look for "10s" and sex as the only reward, makes a lot of sense to me. There certainly are diminishing returns, I know that well myself.

          My style is a bit different, I don't prioritise efficacy, I prioritise "style" and "coolness" that I alone appreciate like a fine wine.

          Over the years getting girls means nothing to me. But understanding them sure still means a decent amount. Knowing them etc.
          I don't always get things right... I'm not perfect, so I don't expect anyone else to be either.
          Sounds to me like you got it mostly right.
          And in finance too? Double whammy!


          Ha Ive been trying my hand at that for ages and been biting on granite, though mind you I do have my successes.
          Not the final, all encompassing, cathartic success yet though. Its a journey (for me) and one I suspect will take me a few more years.
          But yeah I'm aware of the ole "time" thing and doing it your way, and ridding yourself of all the illusions.
          I also know in which way you mean that stability is an illusion.
          But I mean, that stability, in the unstable world can be an aim. Not that naive pursuit assures it ... that... is a tricky tight rope walk.
          I know the cycles of stuff just falling to pieces and I know it really well.

          Problem for me is, I'm wealthy inside, I feel fine, I have experience in big deals too... haha... all I should need.
          SHOULD being the word though.
          Not asking for anyone to fix it though, just knodding in acknowledgement to what you are talking about and how far it applies.
          Its complex.

          I'm glad you got free of those money demons telling you to do everything the wrong way. Those are pesky.



          I'm surprised you found biz so easy after doing girls though? For me doing girls made me angry when it came to biz cuz I wanted it to be as "straight forward" as girls, where you go up and have a shot.
          But in my experience biz is more like... a guys saying yes and then trailing off into nothingness, and things falling back to where they were before you started trying to change them.
          And over... and over... and over... and over.
          Lol xD

          I dunno, I've got good humor about it though. Peace of mind at least. Though Id prefer a bit more success if you know what I mean? Tangible. (thinks)
          Maybe I have some ways. Just gotta think outside the box.
          You ever considered doing seminars and stuff man?
          Or is it too pain in the ass to get a room full do you think?

          Comment


          • Razorjack

            Razorjack

            commented
            Editing a comment
            I got to admit that I read a post of yours a long time ago, don't remember which one but when I read it I remembered thinking: Wow! This reads like poetry but I had no idea what any of it meant or how to apply it pick up. Couldn't even figure out what your "style" was. It wasn't until I met up with Teevster in Copenhagen last year and he explained it that I got the aha moment.

            Yeah, your "style" is out there and by far the most unique way of doing pick up that I've ever seen / heard of. Tons of respect, man! I thought I'd seen it all in pick up / seduction until Teevster showed me the pics!

            I hear what you're saying and agree 100%. Several years back, I used to be Vice President of one of the world's largest IT companies, had plenty of people who were envious of the power, salary and benefits package but I was miserable, stressed out, barely slept and had physical neck pain and stiffness for 6 years due to sitting in boardrooms all day. Then 1 day I got tired of all the corporate politics and bullshit, I quit and started the journey that I am now and haven't looked back since. The corporate rat race is not something that I would do again, ever!

            Actually succeeding in finance/wealth building isn't too different from succeeding with women, both require you to be free from illusions about yourself and the interplay with women/money. Just the illusions are different. The skills needed to build wealth and make money are so simple that most people find it too damn boring and feel the need to take too much risk to add some excitement to it. The really difficult part is breaking free of the illusions about money and maintaining discipline not to interfere with the process due to boredom. The trick I found is to "design" a lifestyle where money is being made while you sleep or are doing other more "fun" things so you don't "disrupt" the growth of the money tree or garden of money trees when you scale up.

            I'll give you an example of what to expect and where the difficulties were for me. When I first started doing what I'm doing now, I had so much free time on my hands since I didn't have to work/have a job/go to the office anymore that I became bored. It was a massive lifestyle change that I found difficult to adapt to, so I had to find things to keep me "busy".

            Hmm... seminars for pick up and seduction? No
            Seminars for wealth building? Not sure, it's an area that would be completely new to me so probably have to think about how it could be done.

            EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, seminars would probably take too much time. I tend to value my quiet time with the family. But no problems for us to meet up some time in person, I'll pick your brain regarding your unique pick up style and you can pick my brain regarding the financial stuff. Just to be sure, I'm no Bill Gates, but I could probably "retire" tomorrow and still live comfortably if I wanted to.

          • thecostofsuccess

            thecostofsuccess

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Sounds cool I live in london at the moment, shouldnt be too hard to meet if you ever come out this way.

            And yeah, family life, I get that. I'd like to do them (seminars) but it requires some marketting to get the word out so I'm stuck for a few months on that front, since I got no liquidity at the moment due to the move. Bores the shit outta me, lol.

            It strikes me you would teach good balanced advice. I think thats more what people need these days, less rar rar get the ten stuff. You know keeping it practical in the sense of context and not having infinite effort to spend at any one time.
            Itd be worth more than 200 an hour if it worked. And youd do good.

        • #9
          Cool thread, thanks everyone, especially RJ! But, man, don’t keep us waiting (baiting?) - what are rules #2 - #4 of Wealth Building?

          Comment


          • Razorjack

            Razorjack

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Baiting? Me? Never!

            #2: Look after your family's well-being. After your own well being, family issues can distract and distort from making clear headed decisions.
            #3: First prioritize your own well-being, then your family's well being, then your business' well-being in that order
            #4: Figure out what your time is worth in money and then measure wealth in time not money, as money is scalable, your time is not. Buy time when it is worth less than your time value, sell time when it is worth more than your time value.

        • #10
          This is a well written post that details various truths concerning life and seduction.

          As you've stated time is a much more valuable resource than money. Additionally, you explained the interesting phenomenon. . . concerning how various sexual markets, and the competitiveness of these markets can influence the behavior of attractive women.

          As well as the experiences of seducers, in various markets depending on the varying levels of sexual competition of these markets.

          There are a few things I'd like to discuss and possibly clarify. They center around the 15 hour time frame, that you've stated as a necessity for fucking extremely beautiful women, who put on an elusive or dismissive barrier of initial-disinterest. In my experiences, it doesn't take nearly that long to succeed in those situations, and take a woman off that script of initial disinterest. I'm curious as to where that number comes from and the circumstances surrounding those interactions.

          If possible could you detail a few of the experiences you've had spending 15 hours to bed these women. This is mostly just to satisfy my own curiosity. Because this is the first time I'm hearing of a required meet-to-lay time frame spanning more than half a day of face time. Perhaps there are changes that could have been made to avoid such a time sink.

          There have been discussions here, and examples provided by community innovators, geared specifically towards achieving hyper consistent meet to hook ratios. Regardless of the initial reception. And after working to develop a varied arsenal of sexually persuasive behaviors and techniques. I've had numerous experiences side stepping initial-disinterest, beguiling elusive women and bedding these girls with only about 2-3 hours face time. I've had experiences doing it in less than one hour too.

          Among other things, I've learned from these experiences that the ease / difficulty that a seducer experiences, while attempting to hook a new woman isn't an accurate indicator of the overall difficulty of the seduction, or how long it's going to take to fuck her. You can have get an easy hook with a girl, and still experience difficult or potentially time-consuming barriers later in the interaction. On the flip side you can spend extra-minutes dealing with a tough reception, and then experience smooth sailing for the rest of the interaction.

          There are many barriers / difficulties that one can experience, at any point during a seduction. Which are for the most part unrelated to ease or difficulty of the initial-phase.

          Like logistical problems, asd, cockblocks, negative internal frames, various other wildcards, lmr, state crashing, inflation of pu material, etc. Moreover, there are strategies and techniques geared towards dissolving these barriers, that can be drilled into automatic responses. Without being forced into spending several hours of face time to get past them.

          Comment


          • Skills360

            Skills360

            commented
            Editing a comment
            But that girl that takes a bunch of dates can be influence to treat you different and not do her programming that she uses with chumps i will agree with bachaus in this one, it does not take 7 or even 15 hours cause the girls is hot... i find in some cases with the hotter ones takes lets time.

          • Logic&Reason

            Logic&Reason

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Of course, that's what I did above. (though I believe a HUGE amount of it comes down to where she's at on her cycle. Your "in some cases" = ovulation.)

            Comes down to the whole "duality of female attraction" thing. They're attracted to providers for half their cycle, crave lovers for one week of their cycle, and then PMS for a week.

            It can take 7-15 hours when a girl has a wealth of provider options and isn't ovulating. In that state, she's closed off to getting laid and isn't getting that tingly feeling down there from lover-style game (it can even turn her off from you). In many cases, to lay the girl you need to maintain yourself as a sexual threat in her mind until she's ovulating again, without disqualifying yourself. The 7-15 hours or whatever comes down to making this happen.

            Most guys just "pass" on these girls though, call them type 1s, or "too blue pill" or "I had to eject" or "she wasn't worth it" or "she's a rich stuck up bitch" or "she's a golddigger, next" or whatever, and then say they never need the extra hours, while not landing these girls outside of catching them ovulating. They have a selection bias based on the girls they lay, and write off the game attempts on all the girls they don't lay, putting blame on the girl. Where other guys like RJ might put in the 15 hours and then fuck her, if its worth it to them.

            Will be interesting to see RJ's thoughts.

          • Razorjack

            Razorjack

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Bacchus,

            Thanks for chiming in! It seems like the thread started going in the wrong direction, this is probably my fault for not putting enough description.

            I just want to clarify that no where did I mean that the "10" in my example took 15 hours due to putting "put on an elusive or dismissive barrier of initial-disinterest". Also the 15 hours is not a scientific number that I researched, it was just a guess based on my experience!

            These can be overcome and I have a ton of field reports where I wrote about this. What I'm talking about are the ones that take a long time due to other reasons which can't be overcome by developing skills. In the (overly-simplified) example I used "8" vs "10", I tried to describe that the "10" does show interest but that she gets a lot of attention from other guys.

            This is from my personal experience what I've seen from high caliber girls who would have taken a long time. These are also girls that I've "dated" (day 2 or day 3) after the initial pick up :
            1. Girls who are hung up on a specific guy. They are interested in you/me but have a specific guy they want a relationship with.
            2. Similar to the one above, girls who want a relationship with a specific type of guy. I don't have tattoos, multiple piercings, perfect 6-pack nor am I blond haired/blue eyes etc.
            3. Similar to the 2 above, this is about girls who have just had a hard break up they are recovering from (but get shown a lot of interest from guys)
            4. Girls with serious unpredictable migraines, backaches, or some other sort of physical ailment
            5. Girls at the office who are constantly busy or overworked, stressed, burned-out etc

            In all of these that I listed, these were girls that showed interest or that were chasing me. A lot of these situations (but not all) can be "solved" by changing the dynamics ("stacking the deck"), e.g. limiting supply (number of good looking guys showing interest)

            Hope this was more clear.

        • #11
          Razorjack is on point in the OP. If it wasn’t from Razorjack it’d be spoken out of the likes of Thin Man, Isidia etc....

          There was a man who I once knew who was a negotiator. Would use private detectives to figure out things so he had an advantage during negotiations.

          One of the the business deals he made had heard this particular CEO had a traumatic experience with a large mastiff. So what did he have during those negotiations?

          He bought a large mastiff and got a one in a lifetime deal.

          Razorjack is saying money is time, so look at what the biggest cheaters do and you’ll understand part 2 of his post.

          Comment


          • #12
            Kant you call it being an evil manipulative prick but isn’t this what SHBs already do unconsciously?

            Only to the extent that a guy is conscious he’s doing it could it be called evil. I’d call it being smart, resourceful or self-reliant. Though I might concede there’s a wee bit of sociopathy there.
            Last edited by Bismarck; 05-02-2019, 02:51 PM.

            Comment


            • #13
              Originally posted by K
              L&R: I had a similar discussion with Gunwitch. He said he's more or less retired "alpha" game altogether for this reason. Gun thought if your goal is consistency with stunners, the highest percentage play is "make her fall in love" game while keeping up sexual state to avoid LJBF. Give her an intense experience and leverage the feelings she develops for you to get laid. Doesn't sound cool on a youtube video lol, but gets you sex with stunners regardless of her cycle, whether you're her type, or fool's mate.
              Full agreement here. I've had the same discussion with Gunwitch over the years, and this matches up with my experiences.

              This is exactly along the lines of the innovations I referred to in my previous post. In Gun's product SMMA he explains the three keys. Social frame, emotional stimulation, and sexual arousal that are a requirement to take a woman off her script, provide this intense emotional experience, and getting the best odds with the women you'll meet and seduce.

              By controlling these 3 keys, you put yourself in the position, to consistently bed stunners, even if they were initially disinterested or elusive. Setting her up to fall in love is the route I often take. And because of the discussions with Gun I decided to learn various strategies, and persuasive techniques, specifically geared towards this type of game.

              Because the more control you can exert over these 3 keys, the more consistently you'll be able to succeed.

              For social frame I sharpened my fundamentals, mastered plausible deniability, learned verbal frame control, like how to flip casual chats, into intriguing conversations consistently. Learned how to prevent ASD and reframe objections, as well as TTM's Hero Button, a deadly story-telling technique that jacks up her trust levels.

              For emotional stimulation I learned hypnotic verbal game, becoming able to covertly induce powerful emotions and feelings.

              By using precise language, speaking in a certain way, and leading the conversation towards a variety of areas, that she will find exciting and topics that engage her emotions and imagination, as well as a variety of ways, to ensure that she associates these intense and pleasurable sensations with me. I approach sexual arousal with a gradual increase of sexual state, sensual facial expressions, and the tonality of my voice. I also learned sex talk and combined it with hypnotic verbal game.

              By design my seductions play out like romance novels, or the type of Hollywood movies, that tug on female fantasies. Taking her on adventure, of causal yet spontaneous meetings, unexpected deep-connections, and a whirlwind of intense emotions before fucking her. . .

              Comment


              • Velasco

                Velasco

                commented
                Editing a comment
                "He's not claiming that it takes 15 hours to fuck HB10s",

                Then why make this point?

                "This becomes even more obvious when I think of what else I could do with €30 000 or 15 hours of my time. For example would you rather have 15 different "8" women or only that "10", in terms of cost they are the same but the difference in value is ridiculous".

                "he's not saying he immediately ejects"

                well maybe RJ doesn't mentions it in the OP, but Teevster (who as far as I'm concerned, is the only guy on this forum who has actually gone out with RJ) did. According to Teev, RJ screens girls out with bitch shields asap cause he doesn't wanna deal with that shit.

                "It can take 5 minutes to fuck some 10s"

                yeah....so its not really a HB8 Vs HB10 debate we're having here....its whether or not the girl you're interested in is immediately receptive or not receptive to you (i.e. an HB10 can be receptive ("take 5 minutes"), while the HB8 could start shit testing you right off the bat...).

                "There's "guaranteed same night if I play this right" and there's "who knows, she's gonna take some time."

                Ok, then you're talking about pulling within 5-15 minutes (just off high buying temperature.....don't need to run the whole shtick on her) Vs 45 minutes - 2 hours (where you'll want to spend a bit more time with her, building a solid connection, making her invest....then pulling). But even still. It's no where close to investing 15 hours of your precious time as RJ suggests. I mean if you're an experienced seducer, it shouldn't be taking you that long to close a girl. maybe an additional 1 or 2 dates for a total of what...say 4 hours?).

                "RJ is being straight up, saying “I’m happy fucking [receptive] 8s. My priority is NOW. I'll fuck a 10 if I get the "same night" vibe but if not [immediately receptive] I'm happy with an [receptive] 8.”

                FIFY.

                But if I understand you correctly, you're saying despite you successfully running Gun's 3 keys on a hottie, you can NOT flip a girl who isn't giving you "same night" vibes?

              • Bacchus

                Bacchus

                commented
                Editing a comment
                Ah yes, sorry about that.

                When I said I didn't mention it in the above post, as you note, that wasn't entirely accurate. I was referring to this current post above, yeah it was there briefly and I chose to remove it right after posting. Didn't know your comment was referring that first draft until now.

                My bad. I should have clarified on this in my previous comment. Briefly, the last line of the above post said something along the lines of this process doesn't take 15 hours. Just for a few minutes. Which is true as Velasco is also pointing out but. . .

                . . . because I didn't read the comments under each previous post, before making my post. A mistake on my part. So after a quick skim through, I decided that was straying, most likely redundant, and unnecessary baiting on my part for me to mention that the end of my post. When 95% of it was following up what K said about SMMA. Seems I couldn't avoid getting carried away the first time around, and I guess you started writing your comment right after the first draft was posted.

                That along with a couple more edits concerning phrasing, and paragraph structure were made to make sure I was satisfied with the post. Took about 3-5 minutes total IIRC. And I figured since your comment was about an hour later that you had already seen the final edit before commenting.

              • Razorjack

                Razorjack

                commented
                Editing a comment
                Velasco, L&R, Bacchus, Skills:
                You all are making good points, but I think you've misunderstood what I meant by 15 hours. I want to clarify that it has nothing to do with "bitch shields" or ASD or whatever. Yes, I am a screener, but not when it comes to bitch shields these could (usually) be overcome. I mean all the other stuff that I listed in a response to Bacchus earlier:

                1. Girls who are hung up on a specific guy. They are interested in you/me but have a specific guy they want a relationship with.
                2. Similar to the one above, girls who want a relationship with a specific type of guy. I don't have tattoos, multiple piercings, perfect 6-pack nor am I blond haired/blue eyes etc.
                3. Similar to the 2 above, this is about girls who have just had a hard break up they are recovering from (but get shown a lot of interest from guys)
                4. Girls with serious unpredictable migraines, backaches, or some other sort of physical ailment
                5. Girls at the office who are constantly busy or overworked, stressed, burned-out etc

                These were all girls that already got past the initial pick up stage with or they were chasing me. You have to remember that these girls have their pick of guys in Scandinavia, but no amount of pick up skills is going to get rid of a thumping migraine or help a girl get over a very emotional break up faster.

                Velasco: Also to clarify, yes I discussed this with Teevster and we've gone out on several occasions. You also have to consider my situation when I met with Teevster, I am already married and I certainly didn't need any drama with bitchy girls (even though I couldn't completely avoid it ) to spoil the one or 2 nights that I would go out in 10 years!

                Hope this was clear!

            • #14
              This discussion inevitably leads us to what skillset we’re talking about.

              At the risk of slight exaggeration it seems that the vast majority of pick-up people these days, at least since I joined mASF in 2009 after reading Strauss’s book, have spent most of their time working on looks maxing (gym, grooming, style, which have their place of course but are by no means everything), mass-approaching (screening for DTF often using no verbal game whatsoever - TT or RSD don’t teach it), or creating contexts where they increase their access to pussy (traveling, tinkering with online, becoming a DJ, becoming a tour guide, physical dancefloor game, etc.) capitalizing on the West’s increasingly feminist and hedonistic tilt.

              Very few people seem to have dedicated an important part of the time they allocate to becoming better with women actually learning about masculine archetypes, female psychology, and the dark arts: verbal frame control in order to, via emotional ‘manipulation,’ (read: learn to speak the language of women) translated into refined verbal skills, seduce gorgeous girls.

              Whether you’re settling for 8s or pretending 6s are 9s if you’re settling at all then you’re not striving for mastery. Not wanting to put in the time to learn how to seduce the most desirable women is a viable option, but let’s call it by its name: screening game.

              This will never be above high intermediate. True seduction can’t be filmed for a YT clip, it’s discrete: it “just happened.”

              Comment


              • Logic&Reason

                Logic&Reason

                commented
                Editing a comment
                Fair point. The original post is ultimately his reasoning for utilizing screening game. And he made the error of using stratospheric numbers to explain, which is something seen here before, so the red flags all make sense.

            • #15
              Originally posted by Bismarck View Post
              \

              Very few people seem to have dedicated an important part of the time they allocate to becoming better with women actually learning about masculine archetypes, female psychology, and the dark arts: verbal frame control in order to, via emotional ‘manipulation,’ (read: learn to speak the language of women) translated into refined verbal skills, seduce gorgeous girls.
              ^ but see this is were you are wrong, is that people have actually learned that, and tested that, and were like meh! is really not worth my time... The reward was not there for the particular person... Again for the reasons explained in the op.

              Also there are many forms of screening.... From blow me it blow me out.... too super advance screening (steve jabba who sleeps with gorgeous women).... I believe everybody screens some more than others, even the ones that you say are the very few people that dedicate the time to become better with women...

              By the way we all take the time to get better with women screener or not....




              p.s. at logic dtf vs ovulating reminds me of tomato tomato, ridiculous bro! and you and i know the reason you are changing terms is cause you don't want to be associated with the dtf people cause some posters thinki no game or whatever ridiculousness...

              Comment


              • Logic&Reason

                Logic&Reason

                commented
                Editing a comment
                I screen for dtf when i want sex now.

                I go for a girl of choice at all cost when i come across someone exceptional.

                I go for hard targets when i want to challenge myself and practice game.

                I use the word ovulation for the reasons i gave above, it’s not synanamous to dtf, it’s the correct and necessary term to describe much of what I’ve written in this thread.

                I hold mastery-minded game as the highest standard, though I’m not personally at all times going for difficult seductions that require mastery.

                I call things what they are. I’m dead honest about my game at all times, i don’t rationalize or have any ulterior motives, I’m not selling shit, and i don’t care if anyone has an issue with how i choose to do things.
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