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Foreign vs. Domestic seduction

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  • Foreign vs. Domestic seduction

    In another thread, Ratata wrote the following:

    A friend of mine, a norwegian, can't for his life get women in Norway - or at least not norwegian women. But when he moved to Brasil he got women left and right. He told me that it was highly unusual if he didn't at least get a make-out with a hot chick if he went to the club over there.

    So, why doesn't he get the local girls over here? Well, by norwegian standards he's a total geek. He's scrawny thin, he doesn't display many of the things norwegian women are after, and added to that he simply lacks confidence that he can bag a norwegian girl and he's got serious issues about his perecived value to norwegian women. He does have a few things going for him, though. He's tall and dark. His name is exotic, and he's really got style.

    Would I tak his advice on norwegian women? Not a chance. Would I take it for brasilian women? Maybe, but probably not. However, would I also get women left and right in Brasil. Most likely!

    So what can we learn from this?

    Certain female traits and turn-ons are UNIVERSAL. Where the supply of (certain) men is low, demand will be high and you'll get laid no matter your game. Or, if you're exotic you'll usually need less game than other men.

    I want to expand on this a bit.

    When I lived in Eastern Europe, I experienced the same phenomenon: it was MUCH easier to get laid, and I got MUCH higher quality women. I used mainly online game. When I come back to the USA, I have a much harder time getting laid, and much lower quality women, also from online game. Just for the record (this comes into play later), I am somewhat unattractive (overweight), and have reasonable high value (good job, education).


    Now, why the difference? Well, most people will jump up and say, "Women in E. Europe are poor/disadvantaged, and so they are willing to fuck any foreigner perceived as being a meal-ticket/provider/greencard". Ok, but two points about that:

    1) I had EQUAL SUCCESS with married women as with single women.
    2) Women in the USA, who are JUST as disadvantaged, possibly even more so (i.e. low income single mothers, which are unusual in E. Europe due to a high abortion rate), are still MUCH HARDER to game than women in E. Europe.

    So, I have some conclusions about this.

    A) The ability to get women from country to country varies based on women's perception of the availability of desirable men. The one thing I noticed in E. Europe was almost all the women I talked to really put down their own country's male population. They widely perceived that local guys were either abusive or lousy in bed, or just assholes. So, for them, you didn't have to be really good looking or rich to be desirable. You didn't even have to be single. You just had to be from somewhere else.

    B) The flip side of that, is that in the USA or Norway, in order to be desirable, you have to be exceptional. Above average in looks, and preferably, above average in status. In other words, women perceive that average, decent, guys, who are acceptable (average looks, average income, etc) are ubiquitous. So, why not hold out for the exceptional man? In essence, what Ratata was saying was correct.


    I used to think that American women perceived their own value as being higher than it is, and yes, that might be true to some extent. In other words, really hot women know they are a commodity. But, I think that is really not the major factor. Women generally don't have high enough self esteem, or an accurate awareness of their own attractiveness, such that they can allow that to make them extremely picky. In some cases yes, but for the average HB7-8...no. She's not sitting there thinking, "I am SO HOT, that I can pick and choose men". She's probably thinking something more like, "Wow, all these guys are hitting on me/messaging me! But they're all so...ordinary. Where's my Prince Charming?!!"

    So, I think the old theory that the reason guys get laid in foreign (and especially third world) countries is because of money, is not always the case. Sure, a guy can go to Thailand and spread cash around and get laid. Happens all the time. But it's just as possible that he can go, offer nothing but his value as a desirable male (by local standards), and end up getting laid far more than back home.

    .

  • #2
    That makes sense.
    1) women like variety
    and
    2) some traits are more common than others in various places


    So...where do you think someone who's well-built but average height and pretty broke would stand out?
    Maybe some European country..?


    Sucks that you couldn't stay in Eastern Europe. Couldn't find indefinite employment?

    Comment


    • #3
      Fantastic post.

      Originally posted by JetSetJim View Post
      When I lived in Eastern Europe, I experienced the same phenomenon: it was MUCH easier to get laid, and I got MUCH higher quality women. I used mainly online game.
      Bucharest right? Could you give us the specific cities you're referring to?

      I have heard the same from other men.

      I used to think that American women perceived their own value as being higher than it is, and yes, that might be true to some extent. In other words, really hot women know they are a commodity. But, I think that is really not the major factor. Women generally don't have high enough self esteem, or an accurate awareness of their own attractiveness, such that they can allow that to make them extremely picky. In some cases yes, but for the average HB7-8...no. She's not sitting there thinking, "I am SO HOT, that I can pick and choose men". She's probably thinking something more like, "Wow, all these guys are hitting on me/messaging me! But they're all so...ordinary. Where's my Prince Charming?!!"
      Completely agree. That's exactly what they think.

      Many actually reach the point where getting so much attention from men actually depresses them, because they know the men are all low-quality. They start thinking "What's the point?"
      How to have 3 hour meet-to-lays and nonmonogamous relationships with any type of woman:
      The Blackdragon Blog

      Comment


      • #4
        BD,

        Bucharest, yes, but I also had personal experience in Estonia, Moldova and Russia. I suspect other countries in the region are similar (Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc). Maybe not so much with Serbia or Croatia (I think we have several guys from those countries on here who could say better than I) because they tend to be pretty nationalistic, and the local girls may think that the local guys are *better* than foreign guys.

        Tank
        See, thats just it- it doesnt matter what your looks are. You aren't standing out because of your looks, you are standing out (i.e. are a desirable male) because you are not local. Sure, looks will help, and being well-built will definitely help. But being very good looking is actually NOT a huge advantage in these places. I think it's because the local girls have experience with the local hot guys, and tend to get rather gunshy with very handsome men. Think about it- women anywhere are attracted to good looking men. But, these girls have been burned time and time again by the local good looking guys, and eventually they say "Fuck it. I'm going to date someone different." I had exactly that happen with a married chick. And after me, she refused to have anything to do with local guys.

        Also, being broke can help, because there ARE visa whores and gold diggers, and if they know you are broke it weeds them out. I found that they were very easy to spot, but the less time you waste on them, the better. Pretty much all the women I dated who were single would have been absolutely thrilled to be my LTR and live in a 1 bedroom apartment in their home country.

        Any country where the women have a low opinion of the local men will do. Russian women are always complaining (quite often, justifiably) that Russian men are only good for drinking. Romanian women complain that the local guys are boorish and abusive (I thought the local guys were awesomely cool dudes...but then again, those guys were either PUAs or married, LOL, so maybe the rest aren't so great). Now, it doesn't matter if that is true or not- all that matters is how local women perceive local men.

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting post, Jim. I understand women likes variety but it seems that you get women in Eastern Europe because of WHAT you are (a foreigner/American) but not WHO you are as a man. I don't think it really matters since you said Eastern European women are better looking than Americans. I have never been to Eastern Europe but I am going to travel to Europe (Germany, Belgium, and Netherlands) in August and see how easy is it to pick up girls with my level.

          P.S. someone here said women like variety... would they be intrigued to meet a deaf guy?

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting topic. I blame the media. And sperm banks. Men shouldn't given women the privilege of reproduction without sex.

            Comment


            • #7
              Scorpio-
              It's not just "variety". That is much more the case when a foreign guy comes to the US, or Norway, or the UK for example. He's "exotic", especially if of a different race.

              What I am talking about is women perceiving the local guys as low value, and most anyone NOT local as high value. It's not "oh this foreign guy is SO exotic", it's "Oh this foreign guy is SO not like my douchbag ex-bf's".

              ...it seems that you get women in Eastern Europe because of WHAT you are (a foreigner/American) but not WHO you are as a man.
              I disagree with this. I think it is just the opposite. Being a foreigner, you are perceived as being (potentially) a better man. And simply being a foreigner is not enough. I know a lot of the chicks I ran across had some negative attitudes towards Turkish and Arab guys. My GF at the time, who had a Master's degree in French literature, had a rather negative view of the French guys, that could basically be translated as "a bunch of worthless frat boys". Again, this was a question of exposure and perception, rather than of actual reality. I can easily imagine that if there were tons of horny American guys hitting on every female in site, they may have perceived Americans as worthless, and, say, Australians as awesome.

              Deaf? Hmmm. Communication might be an issue (no pun inteneded). Depends on how your spoken English (i.e. deaf-accented speaker vs. adult-onset deafness speaker) is and your ability to read lips. I wouldn't expect much sign language ability. What I WOULD expect is that 1)the local deaf chicks would be HOT and 2) In a lot of places, being a deaf American would get you TONS of help. Most of the girls I know would probably mother-hen the fuck out of a "poor, helpless, deaf American boy". I'd milk the shit out of that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JetSetJim View Post
                Scorpio-
                It's not just "variety". That is much more the case when a foreign guy comes to the US, or Norway, or the UK for example. He's "exotic", especially if of a different race.

                What I am talking about is women perceiving the local guys as low value, and most anyone NOT local as high value. It's not "oh this foreign guy is SO exotic", it's "Oh this foreign guy is SO not like my douchbag ex-bf's".



                I disagree with this. I think it is just the opposite. Being a foreigner, you are perceived as being (potentially) a better man. And simply being a foreigner is not enough. I know a lot of the chicks I ran across had some negative attitudes towards Turkish and Arab guys. My GF at the time, who had a Master's degree in French literature, had a rather negative view of the French guys, that could basically be translated as "a bunch of worthless frat boys". Again, this was a question of exposure and perception, rather than of actual reality. I can easily imagine that if there were tons of horny American guys hitting on every female in site, they may have perceived Americans as worthless, and, say, Australians as awesome.

                Deaf? Hmmm. Communication might be an issue (no pun inteneded). Depends on how your spoken English (i.e. deaf-accented speaker vs. adult-onset deafness speaker) is and your ability to read lips. I wouldn't expect much sign language ability. What I WOULD expect is that 1)the local deaf chicks would be HOT and 2) In a lot of places, being a deaf American would get you TONS of help. Most of the girls I know would probably mother-hen the fuck out of a "poor, helpless, deaf American boy". I'd milk the shit out of that.

                I don't think races or where people are from really matters, in my opinion. I think it's the stereotypes that foreigners are "perceived" higher value than local guys. It's true that girls usually perceive attractive foreign guys higher value than local guys but they can't know attractive foreign guys CAN be as abusive, boring, or low value as local guys at the moment girls meet them because it is irrelevant at the time but prospective can change in time women get to know them.

                Think about it... If you meet model looking chick from Brazil, you WOULD perceive her as higher value than local girls (American girls) because you know and have seen Brazilian women as hot as this chick but you don't know if she could possibly be bat crazy, have bland personality, or dumb until you get to know her. Therefore, it's the stereotypes that give you perspective about foreigners.

                I can speak, hear (with hearing aids, of course lol), and read lips well... Geez, I wouldn't want to be mother-hen'd by women because I'm "poor, helpless deaf American boy"... I would rather to be treated like women would treat attractive American men.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting. I'm average in looks at best and same goes for my provider value.

                  However, I have had great results in the US and Asia once women figured out that I was not American / Asian.

                  Now, for Asia it makes a lot of sense. I'm different in a lot of ways.

                  But I'm wrecking my head about the US, how can that be? I look pretty much the same + I don't have a noticeable accent.

                  Yet, once I make it clear that I'm not American my value spikes. Is it the "Anti-American" effect?

                  Nick

                  ps: Totally different here in Spain. Spanish women LOVE Spanish guys.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    JSJ I think it is a lot more complicated than just being a foreigner. I am a Russian (who immigrated to the US 33yrs ago) and I would have a much easier time getting women in Russia than I am having here, contrary to your theory. By a multitude of reasons, in Russia (and Ukraine, Belarus) you do not really need game, it is enough to be just a normal generic guy - as long as you are not ugly, not a drunkard/abuser, gainfully employed and not a complete dork women will throw themselves at you. So there is a real difference - in Russia it is enough to be a generic, here in the US you need to develop your own brand.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scorpio View Post
                      Geez, I wouldn't want to be mother-hen'd by women because I'm "poor, helpless deaf American boy"... I would rather to be treated like women would treat attractive American men.
                      Ah, the folly of pride...

                      Btw. a few years ago I saw this Scottish guy pulling chicks in left and right by a fountain here in Oslo. He looked a little drunk and helpless where he sat, although fun and charming, and he was just pulling women in like flies to shit, either by speaking to them directly, or chicks would hear his accent and simply approach him because he was exotic.

                      I was amazed!

                      It was certainly not his looks that attracted the women, although he looked pretty normal. Or in fact you could say he looked completely like you'd imagine a British football hooligan. What the girls noticed, though, was undoubtedly his accent. Regular English (also Am. Eng) wouldn't do as everybody knows it over here, and some speak it so well that even native speakers couldn't hear the difference (for instance Americans and Canadians often mistake me for being a Brit), so something like Irish or Scottish are the only things really standing out, and this guy was really playing the part.

                      I decided I had to go speak to the guy, and maybe learn a trick or two. At first he he shrugged me off, but since I wouldn't relent he started blabbering something in my direction while the women nearby were still captivated. Then I noticed something. "Where you from?" I demanded. "Ay'm from Shhcooootland, ov cauwrse". "No, I mean where in Scotland? Your dialect seems unfamiliar to me..." I continued. "Ay'm from, urrrgh... Bahlhlhaigh, 'tis not far from Dublin!" he tried. "That's in Ireland, dude" I said. "You're not from Scotland at all, are you?"

                      Then something funny happened. He broke out in laughter and admitted that, sure, he's Norwegian... But he used to get women by faking to be a lost Scotsman. Usually a girl would take him under his wing and bring him home for quick and no-strings-attached sex, and then kick him out the next day - just what he was looking for. He told me that he sometimes forgot himself the next day and spoke Norwegian, and this had made a few chicks angry, but mostly they took it quite well. The main thing was that they saw him as safe to bring home because he was exotic, not likely to be needy and start pestering her to start a relationship, and most importantly, would never get mixed up with her friends, thus keeping the lid on rumours.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Time for me to pipe in here with my experiences:

                        The two chicks I'm currently seeing are from Mexico and Cuba. The last two chicks I was seeing were from Brazil and Columbia.

                        Thinking further back, the only while chicks I've fucked have been drunken ONS.

                        I prefer latin girls for a number of reasons, but most importantly because of their femininity. They are eager to be hit on, eager to meet you, and easily convinced to come home with you.

                        My first gf was Serbian. She was nationalistic and so were her parents. My family is also from eastern europe so I suppose there was some familiarity there, but she'd often say "you are great but I have to marry a serbian man"

                        Other times she'd say the exact opposite and basically assume I was her soul mate haha, but overall she was WAY too set on the idea that her country was the best.

                        This works both ways I guess, as long as either you or the girl are foreign.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          American women are always ragging on American men (where are all the good men? etc.) If your theory is true then foreign guys would clean up with American women. Yet I don't see American women lining up for Chinese men, Indian men, Russian men, African men etc.

                          So what's going on?
                          Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of this either, though maybe its where in the US you live. There are some stereotypes of men from different countries that put us off I think. Like we are scared of Middle Eastern and African men and think they're all wife beaters, the European guys when they come here can seem gay due to cultural differences (talking where I live, bigger cities, east or west coast you'd probably have better luck), Russian guys can come off as kinda creepy, in my experience anyway (again probably just a cultural perception down here in the Bible belt- there was this Russian exchange student in college that was a bit of a stalker of mine so that probably affects my opinion too), Mexican, Puerto Rican and Canadian guys don't even seem exotic and Asian guys get kind of a "weak" reputation here so that probably puts women off. Now some guy from Brazil or Spain or Italy and girls are jumping all over them so I guess it's where you are from. I think Australian or British guys might do ok too. Though no matter where you are from your accent might be seen as cute. I went to college with a bunch of exchange students from the Netherlands and they didn't seem very sought after either but then you have to consider this is Redneck territory and they are pretty unfriendly to "different" people.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I live in a college town in the Southern US at the moment. Before that, I've also lived in France and Bolivia. I'm of Indian heritage. Things I've noticed -

                            - Being Indian in America is a DLV, mainly because it's not exotic anymore at all. America and the UK are overrun by brown people and get a reputation of either being engineers, or gas station/motel owners. To counter this I just play up the French part of my personality and girls eat that shit up. One night at a frat party I got drunk and proceeded to talk only in French or with a French accent and I've never been surrounded by so many girls trying to take me home in my life. Then I chose one and took her behind the bushes.

                            - Being Indian or American in France is a DHV. American because French girls (in my experience) love all things American and US culture. Indian because there's just not that many Indian people French girls have been exposed to, to form a stereotype about. That's why I'm starting off without a handicap.

                            - Being Indian in Bolivia was a huuge plus, because it was legit exotic. You'd never expect an Indian dude there. They christened me 'Jamal' (From Slumdog millionaire) and over a couple of months my legend grew in social circles as this Indian guy who rolls with Bollywood stars and is friends with Maharajahs. (There are no more Maharajas lol, but people filled in their own perceptions)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ratata View Post
                              Ah, the folly of pride...

                              Btw. a few years ago I saw this Scottish guy pulling chicks in left and right by a fountain here in Oslo. He looked a little drunk and helpless where he sat, although fun and charming, and he was just pulling women in like flies to shit, either by speaking to them directly, or chicks would hear his accent and simply approach him because he was exotic.

                              I was amazed!

                              It was certainly not his looks that attracted the women, although he looked pretty normal. Or in fact you could say he looked completely like you'd imagine a British football hooligan. What the girls noticed, though, was undoubtedly his accent. Regular English (also Am. Eng) wouldn't do as everybody knows it over here, and some speak it so well that even native speakers couldn't hear the difference (for instance Americans and Canadians often mistake me for being a Brit), so something like Irish or Scottish are the only things really standing out, and this guy was really playing the part.

                              I decided I had to go speak to the guy, and maybe learn a trick or two. At first he he shrugged me off, but since I wouldn't relent he started blabbering something in my direction while the women nearby were still captivated. Then I noticed something. "Where you from?" I demanded. "Ay'm from Shhcooootland, ov cauwrse". "No, I mean where in Scotland? Your dialect seems unfamiliar to me..." I continued. "Ay'm from, urrrgh... Bahlhlhaigh, 'tis not far from Dublin!" he tried. "That's in Ireland, dude" I said. "You're not from Scotland at all, are you?"

                              Then something funny happened. He broke out in laughter and admitted that, sure, he's Norwegian... But he used to get women by faking to be a lost Scotsman. Usually a girl would take him under his wing and bring him home for quick and no-strings-attached sex, and then kick him out the next day - just what he was looking for. He told me that he sometimes forgot himself the next day and spoke Norwegian, and this had made a few chicks angry, but mostly they took it quite well. The main thing was that they saw him as safe to bring home because he was exotic, not likely to be needy and start pestering her to start a relationship, and most importantly, would never get mixed up with her friends, thus keeping the lid on rumours.
                              That's absolutely fantastic, I'll need to remember to visit Norway

                              Comment

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