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PUA and Minimalism (also about attitudes to other areas of our lives)

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  • #16
    Maybe self-improvement isn't the answer.... Maybe self-destruction is the answer. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6

    This = stupid

    And this:

    ..you're not how much money you've got in the bank. You're not your job. You're not your family, and you're not who you tell yourself.... You're not your name.... You're not your problems.... You're not your age.... You are not your hopes. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 18

    = delusional, illogical and of course stupid!
    Yeah, money isn't important. For me, it's fucking important.

    Fuck Fight Club, garbage book and movie. Though minimalist approach to life is the best key to preserve your wealth.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Isidia View Post

      Yeah, money isn't important. For me, it's fucking important.

      Fuck Fight Club, garbage book and movie. Though minimalist approach to life is the best key to preserve your wealth.


      Fight Club is a movie (or a book for those who have read it), an enjoyable one. Though some people tend to see in it some deep, paradigm shifting truth and are so impressed and marked by it. You'll find pictures of "deep" quotes by Tyler Durden everywhere on Facebook of people who actually identify themselves to that..

      In that scene where Ed Norton and Brad Pitt hop on the bus, Ed looks at a Calvin Klein ripped men in their undies, and Tyler laughs at them ... And I was like "Hmmm.. Tyler Durden didn't get that ripped body like that, now did he".. He laughs at guys for doing something he does himself.

      I say Fight Club is more than a movie for people who are still looking for themselves. As is "Into The Wild" which is like the shittiest movie people love, with the shittiest actor's game there is, and the shittiest script with an obvious shitty message.
      "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Isidia View Post

        = delusional, illogical and of course stupid!
        Yeah, money isn't important. For me, it's fucking important.

        Fuck Fight Club, garbage book and movie. Though minimalist approach to life is the best key to preserve your wealth.
        He doesn't say money isn't important, he's saying you can't define YOURSELF as a person by those things.

        For example, when someone asks the question "what do you do?" or "who are you?" we tend to answer first with what our profession is, but how can a profession contain the whole story of who we are or what we've done with our lives?

        In addition, "having money" isn't about building cash in the bank just to sit there. Money has no use for its own sake - it's a medium through which to acquire other stuff (whether that's physical possessions or experiences). Essentially cash has no use until you spend it (even invested cash that produces more cash has no technical use until it gets spent). People spend their entire lives chasing money and to what end? Are you unhappy right now? Most of the time an increase in income produces a very small short-term increase in happiness but then that effect disappears as the increase becomes normalised. So too, buying a new toy (e.g. a phone/tablet/computer/car/house etc) produces a short-term boost in happiness which diminishes quickly as it becomes routine and therefore mundane. After a certain point (i.e. enough to cover your basic needs comfortably) additional income provides no additional happiness in the long-term.

        If you're interested in making more money, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? What is it about having more money that is so attractive to you? And once you've truly and honestly answered that question, the next question is "do I actually need more money to achieve that?" Money, as I've previously mentioned, is simply a tool to acquire other things (possession or experience). Very few people want money simply to watch a bank account number go higher (indeed a lot of the billionaires whose biographies I've read have often mentioned that they're not motivated by money as much as they're motivated by challenge). When looking at the underlying reason for wanting more money, in most cases one of two things is true: 1) they want more money to overcome an insecurity (e.g. fear of not being able to eat when they're old [retirement planning] or the desire to look impressive to other people [buying new toys] or 2) there is a way to achieve it without simply getting money (e.g. freedom to work a job you love or being able to travel the world).

        As we know from our study on this board, we are very socially programmed to follow a pre-defined set of rules, regardless of whether these are right for us or not. For example, we're told "go to college, get a good job, buy a house, save for retirement." And doing all these things does create wealth, but unfortunately never for ourselves, only for someone else. Look at the sub-prime mortgages where thousands of people lost their homes and even more lost value on them (a decrease in wealth) - most of these people didn't buy houses because they were good investments or because they understood the situations, but because they were told to, for most of their lives.

        So the quote isn't trying to say that money is or isn't important, it's saying that money in the bank is not how you define yourself. And until you define yourself, you'll keep looking at things like your job, your bank balance, who you hang out with, what you buy etc to try and work out who you are. But you are already a complete person and you should work out WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU WANT and THEN start working out things like money etc.

        Money is a tool. A hammer is a tool. A hammer only has any use if you have to hit in a nail. Likewise with money - collecting it for its own sake is a waste of your life. Understanding what you want and knowing what money you need to achieve that puts you in a position of power. Because otherwise, when is it enough?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Vautrin View Post


          In that scene where Ed Norton and Brad Pitt hop on the bus, Ed looks at a Calvin Klein ripped men in their undies, and Tyler laughs at them ... And I was like "Hmmm.. Tyler Durden didn't get that ripped body like that, now did he".. He laughs at guys for doing something he does himself.

          That's because Tyler Durden is a figment imaginative character that the main character created in his neurosis as an example of who he would like to be had he not bought into the matrix bullshit of needing money, status, and possessions. As you can see his "ideal" self, aka TD, is not deluded from the bullshit, has no fear of death/living, and fucks chicks. The main character is an unfit depressed slob suffering from insomnia who works a desk job, Tyler Durden is a fit fearless "perfect" self, who the main character wishes to be, so he acts as if.

          Did you watch the end of the movie?

          Also the term "self-destruction" is referring to destroying the ego. What's the point of self-improvement if you're afraid of living life. You need LESS bullshit, not more. This is why he takes the guys into a car and crashes the car, to get them to face death so that they can appreciate life. This is why he puts the gun to the convenience store clerks head and says "If you're not achieving your dream I will find you and kill you", again, to wake people up from their 9-5 daily routine and to live their life, he does this by putting the gun to his head so that he realizes that this could be the final moment he is alive and up until now he has nothing to show for it. See Ijjjji's quote.

          He laughs at the ripped body, because what's the use of being strong when you don't use your strength? It's just for appearances, and appearances are fake. E.g. ripped guy who works 9-5 office job vs strong man because farms and works his off all day. One is real, the other is fake.

          "Who you were in fight club is not who you were in the rest of the world. The guy who came to fight club for the first time, his ass was a wad of cookie dough, after a few weeks, he was carved out of wood"
          The Qlue, simple perspectives on life.

          Comment


          • #20
            For example, when someone asks the question "what do you do?" or "who are you?" we tend to answer first with what our profession is, but how can a profession contain the whole story of who we are or what we've done with our lives?

            Well, I am not sure what place on earth you are living. You are defined by your utility to the rest of the world. Agree? High income jobs certainly will make people respect you, this is common sense. You are much more respectable than a bum who has no jobs, or works in Mc Donald.

            If you're interested in making more money, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? What is it about having more money that is so attractive to you?

            This part I can answer, having more money means I can do a whole lot more things, more options open to me.

            Very few people want money simply to watch a bank account number go higher (indeed a lot of the billionaires whose biographies I've read have often mentioned that they're not motivated by money as much as they're motivated by challenge). When looking at the underlying reason for wanting more money, in most cases one of two things is true: 1) they want more money to overcome an insecurity (e.g. fear of not being able to eat when they're old [retirement planning] or the desire to look impressive to other people [buying new toys] or 2) there is a way to achieve it without simply getting money (e.g. freedom to work a job you love or being able to travel the world).

            I don't know what to say, except that there is a difference between a guy who knows how to make good money, and a guy who works his arse off for a company. The former usually has a lot of freedom in his hands, the latter has not much time for himself.

            For example, we're told "go to college, get a good job, buy a house, save for retirement." And doing all these things does create wealth, but unfortunately never for ourselves, only for someone else.

            I agree. But bear in mind if you come from a different background, then a degree from a top-notched university in a challenging field ensures you a very satsifying career opportunity. There is no one-size-fits-all.

            So the quote isn't trying to say that money is or isn't important, it's saying that money in the bank is not how you define yourself. And until you define yourself, you'll keep looking at things like your job, your bank balance, who you hang out with, what you buy etc to try and work out who you are. But you are already a complete person and you should work out WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU WANT and THEN start working out things like money etc.

            This statement is full of contradictions, I am afraid. My assumption is that I am always in a state of imperfection, therefore self-improvement. I learn from others to become good at other things.

            Money doesn't define you. I don't know. I am afraid to engage in a semantic debate here, let just say money buys you freedom. And freedom, freedom, is a valuable thing.

            To wrap up my opinion, I agree that you should not spend on worthless shits, on stuffs that are redundant, being minimalist to your approach if you can't afford luxury. But to move up to the next level, you need some dough to roll so you can enjoy a higher quality of life.

            It's the basic premise in your OP that I agree.

            How about Fight Club, LOL, I won't change my mind.
            A piece of nihilistic shit that breeds mediocrity. It's correct from some angles to expose consumerism, but it's also a mess filled of contradiction. A piece of entertainment at best.

            He laughs at the ripped body, because what's the use of being strong when you don't use your strength? It's just for appearances, and appearances are fake. E.g. ripped guy who works 9-5 office job vs strong man because farms and works his off all day. One is real, the other is fake.

            There are certainly values in this statement. But in terms of chicks, since this is forum about getting chicks, let just say they don't give a fuck what is fake and what is real. A nice body in general will light their eyes more than a skinny slob.

            Besides, most farmers in my country have the worst body you ever see! JFYI.

            However, that doesn't mean what I want. I demand more from my body, strength and endurance. Hence I enjoy being punched while learning boxing. Fucking awesome! You should have a bit of masochist tendency to fully engage in this sport. HA!

            He laughs at the ripped body, because what's the use of being strong when you don't use your strength?

            Man can you think more before you write. He is an idiot. Guys who look like models spending a lot times to sculpt that kind of body. The body reflects your mind, your characters. I was skinny before and I could barely lift a girl in clubs, now medium sized ones are my toys.

            When you look at an MMA fighter what do you see, a great body! Behind that is a lot of aggression that defines manhood. You got it now.

            Comment


            • #21
              The MMA fighter is using his body, which is what I'm saying, whereas the Calvin Klein model is just an appearance. In the movie he says "Is that what a man looks like?" What he's implying is that a man is beyond appearances. The body should be the byproduct of his lifestyle, his mission. A man that has a shitty lifestyle (9-5 office job) and then has a ripped body, is dealing with appearances. If you go deeper, he is implying that a ripped body should come from a fearless man, one who is not afraid to fight. In other words, the "fake" man has all those muscles, but you could slap the shit out of his scared ass. Just like someone who knows kung fu but in real life is helpless and will get killed.

              Anyways, I can't dumb this down any further. Read some literature.
              The Qlue, simple perspectives on life.

              Comment


              • #22
                Anyways, I can't dumb this down any further. Read some literature.

                There is nothing else to argue, because we are actually agreeing.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Qlue View Post
                  That's because Tyler Durden is a figment imaginative character that the main character created in his neurosis as an example of who he would like to be had he not bought into the matrix bullshit of needing money, status, and possessions. As you can see his "ideal" self, aka TD, is not deluded from the bullshit, has no fear of death/living, and fucks chicks. The main character is an unfit depressed slob suffering from insomnia who works a desk job, Tyler Durden is a fit fearless "perfect" self, who the main character wishes to be, so he acts as if.

                  Did you watch the end of the movie?

                  Also the term "self-destruction" is referring to destroying the ego. What's the point of self-improvement if you're afraid of living life. You need LESS bullshit, not more. This is why he takes the guys into a car and crashes the car, to get them to face death so that they can appreciate life. This is why he puts the gun to the convenience store clerks head and says "If you're not achieving your dream I will find you and kill you", again, to wake people up from their 9-5 daily routine and to live their life, he does this by putting the gun to his head so that he realizes that this could be the final moment he is alive and up until now he has nothing to show for it. See Ijjjji's quote.

                  He laughs at the ripped body, because what's the use of being strong when you don't use your strength? It's just for appearances, and appearances are fake. E.g. ripped guy who works 9-5 office job vs strong man because farms and works his off all day. One is real, the other is fake.

                  "Who you were in fight club is not who you were in the rest of the world. The guy who came to fight club for the first time, his ass was a wad of cookie dough, after a few weeks, he was carved out of wood"
                  Love that movie, I think it might be the first "red pill" movie ever made. Definitely opened my eyes to a lot of things> i've always wondered if there was a buddhist/advaita subtext with the ego-death like in the matrix.
                  http://revolutionarylifestyledesign.com/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Vautrin View Post


                    Fight Club is a movie (or a book for those who have read it), an enjoyable one. Though some people tend to see in it some deep, paradigm shifting truth and are so impressed and marked by it. You'll find pictures of "deep" quotes by Tyler Durden everywhere on Facebook of people who actually identify themselves to that..

                    In that scene where Ed Norton and Brad Pitt hop on the bus, Ed looks at a Calvin Klein ripped men in their undies, and Tyler laughs at them ... And I was like "Hmmm.. Tyler Durden didn't get that ripped body like that, now did he".. He laughs at guys for doing something he does himself.

                    I say Fight Club is more than a movie for people who are still looking for themselves. As is "Into The Wild" which is like the shittiest movie people love, with the shittiest actor's game there is, and the shittiest script with an obvious shitty message.
                    I have felt that truly understanding why dudes in the West have mini-orgasms when talking about Fight Club or Ayn Rand is an index of how much you "get" Western culture.

                    I still don't fully get it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RevLifestyleDesign View Post
                      Love that movie, I think it might be the first "red pill" movie ever made.
                      Technically speaking The Matrix is the first "red pill" movie, since "red pill" comes from it. Kubrick's movies are older and they are simply brilliant. (see: 2001/Clockwork orange/Eyes wide shut).

                      But what you see in those movies is far older, and it's Nietzsche. I'm not going to go into details about Nietzsche's philosophy here, as much as I love him, but one of his main ideas is the superman (not the one with the laser eyes), For Nietzsche the modern man is for the superman what the ape is for the modern man, another step in evolution, the return to the instincts that the modern man has lost. Fight club does a great job in remarking this, the first part of the film shows the modern man, without natural instincts, robotics, searching for someone to save them. Then appears Tyler, the good Tyler, the savior, who wants to awake people and return them to a dionysian state, whether if that's good or bad isn't up to us, it's beyond good and evil.

                      It's pretty obvious and direct in Fight club I think, finding it in Kubrick's work is a little more difficult, but when you do it you understand one of the great masters of cinema of all times.
                      A great essay about 2001 and Nietzsche: http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0013.html

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by hangman View Post
                        I have felt that truly understanding why dudes in the West have mini-orgasms when talking about Fight Club or Ayn Rand is an index of how much you "get" Western culture.

                        I still don't fully get it.

                        Oh I "get" why dudes have mini-orgasms when talking about Fight Club. In my experience, the excitement someone has for Fight Club or thinking about Tyler Durden is a good index on how well he identifies with Edward Norton's character, and how far he is from everything Tyler Durden represents.

                        I can get that Tyler's character can impress an adolescent who's searching for "himself" and sees in him an ideal of "coolness". But an adult "looking up" to Tyler Durden is just weird on so many different levels.

                        It's a fun movie, in my opinion, but the only ones who're really hyper about it are guys who don't get laid and somehow, try to emulate Tyler in the hopes of appealing to "ladies".

                        Getting that excited about it is a sign of latent homosexuality, too. I'd rather be gay for Don Corleone

                        Oh and anybody who gives me the thing that we don't get the message about consumption, materialistic capitalist society isn't right in the head. We get the message. It's fucking obvious a teenager can get. Heck it's in the darn script.
                        "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Spending time watching MMA matches organized in China after a 2 hours session of Muai Thai is way more interesting than that garbage.

                          I'd rather be gay for Don Corleone

                          +1 I love 2 parts of Godfather. I also love reading about Otto Von Bismarck!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Vautrin View Post

                            I can get that Tyler's character can impress an adolescent who's searching for "himself" and sees in him an ideal of "coolness". But an adult "looking up" to Tyler Durden is just weird on so many different levels.
                            That and if I read red pill, blue pill or matrix I just go to sleep...

                            But I was once there and I totally digged Tyler. Always another level :-)

                            Brad Pitts physique, zzzzzzz. Next topic! ;-)

                            ancestor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have always thought that expensive and extravagant lifestyles don't equal happiness, infact I think it can lead to depression. I grew up in a somewhat materialistic family that lived in a county known for keeping up with Joneses. Not a good way to live or raise kids despite what it looks like on the surface.
                              "The further a society drifts from truth, the more they will hate those who speak it" -- George Orwell

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                -By god I am ashamed.. I so hate when people spam the new subject in numerous threads.
                                -Not only did I violate my own value.. I did it for the subject that is about having LESS of all things..
                                -Anyways, I think this is 'the thread' on minimalism, so very sorry to have spawned another one:
                                Minimalism - my take on it
                                -Needless to say, I feel continued discussion ought to happen here - not there.
                                Loves: Shy Girl-coding into Starry-eyed Extroversion, spamming Open-loops and Mini-cold-reads and lots of light kino.
                                Hates: Putting pressure on others. Things that feel 'brainy'.

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