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Dodging punches like Mayweather

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  • Dodging punches like Mayweather

    Ok, I figured this out just now and it is really quite interesting how it works,

    Been working on it for a few years ever since I got good enough at boxing (been boxing for 8 years? Budo/Japanese arts since 8 years old)
    Boxing is great for fitness it is also the best for strength, reach, and foundation behind strikes, it teaches more strategy, it teaches footwork, and evasion,
    Its actually quite a cool martial art, it just is terrible at holding its own in grapples... I mean, I once faced off versus a former world champion where he was boxing and I was using other martial arts and it took me like 3 seconds to make him shit himself, cuz of his bowling pin legs. I just dodged a punch got in and threw him, entered behind his blindspot, took him from behind.

    Martial arts based on samurai, do not fight fair haha, its all about blindspots and balance and psyching people out with really horrible and compromising positioning.
    In fact MMA as brutal and all encompassing as it is, doesnt permit wristlocks, fingerlocks, blindspot maneuvers, etc. Which does BLUNTEN it a bit compared to what martial arts can really do.
    It is pretty close, or as close as you can get though to maxing out possibility why keeping fair and free of danger. That said, a bit of "shit their pantss" is missing from it even today cuz, the sharper techniques are either illegal or discouraged.

    Anyways, I'm sure you all watched the mayweather vs macgregor fight recently right?
    The keys to mayweathers victory was fitness and his familiarity with dodging punches.
    Now, it is true that macgregor knows how to slip a punch, but mayweather is on a whole other level, which cut down macgregors offence and dragged macgregor into a tiresome fight where he was utterly toothless.

    Macgregor had to strike more than he was used to without making contact, which is twice as tiring at landing a timed blow.
    Also because he couldnt hit mayweather he had to strike more often in order to SEEM competitive and remain dangerous tactically.
    The fight was sort of over from the firt round though from my persspective cuz I knew that mayweather was coasting, and not being challenged.
    Not due to macgregors shortfalls but due to how effective his dodging really is and how it works (which I will desscribe how it is properly done in a bit)

    First lets look at the fight




    Aight in the first 3 mins youll see macgregor get in counterstrikes and a few shots, but while that might look good, the problem is, he is spending his power too early
    If that power doesnt land hard enough, it wont have any lasting effect on the fight, and using it again will seem useless as the fight progresses cuz macgregor cant win by pressing repeat,
    You cant win a boxing match with MODERATE power, it has to KO from shock and awe or you need to drag the opponent down and clip him off
    Mayweather wisely doesnt feed the flames of his attack, and as a result macgregors assault is far too weak.
    He just does positioning, stopping macgregor from any prolonged assault and while a few hits get in, it is acceptable
    In other words, he had successfully nullified macgregors weapons... though most people look at those first 3 mins of highlights and say "ooh, he kinda tagged you bro"
    Thats an image thing, not a fight thing, fight wise, mayweather succeeded at wrapping up connor's attack

    At 4 mins you will see mayweathers aggression increase
    THIS is when mayweather is actually fighting a little,
    Before he was just, coasting
    But now he senses he has wrapped up connors weapons so is now taking DOMINANT POSITIONS to attack
    BUT, he is NOT going all out... why? It is because he is TESTING his offence. Searching for weak points in macgregors defence.
    Notice how effective he is, that magregor is wilting under some of this pressure, hunching, and flinching, because he fears he DOES have weakspots.
    A correct approach to defence her would be to jab him off, keep him out of being able to test his offence or take those dominant positions.
    But cuz mayweathers head can move so well, he can actually be VERY FORCEFUL at suppressing maacgregors weak attempts to do just that.
    Macgregor FAILS to keep his own space... big big problem, giving mayweather a huge information advantage on how to take him out.
    Again, the casual viewer thhinkss, ok macgregor got licks in and now mayweather got licks in, that looks even. But that is not correct.
    Macgregors licks were a failure, mayweathers a success, due to the different GOALS.

    5.40 in
    Macgregors ego starts to crack
    When he lashes out, notice that mayweather strikes back unworried and quite powerfully
    This is macgregor trying to get LOUDER due to frustration, but guess what, mayweather is CHOOSING to keep it tight
    If macgregor comes in too much HE effectively shuts own the domination like macgregor failed to do just before
    Connor doesnt see it but hes actually lossing and this is a sign of it, it shows he has no pathway to winning and its him lashing out
    Which, wouldnt you know it... costs him the match... as you will see the fatigue really start to set in, at 7 mins him copping blows due to fatigue

    8 mins
    Magregor has lost the plot
    He might as well be a wearing oven mits and dancing, cuz he has no bite at all now, hes just waiting for combos to rain down
    And mayweathher can now safely begin to oblige him
    Mayweather isnt in a threatened position cuz if things heat up he has 100% evasive ability still at his disposal, which he can switch on
    He doesnt need to though cuz connor is sticking to 1-2s out of fatigue, and a 1-2 isnt gonna do it, he ought to be using 5-8 mve combos here to dazzle and confuse mayweather and get him starting to fatigue, but no such thing occurs

    10.30
    Focusing in, mayweather crashes through connors now paper weak defence, using his energy stores NOW
    Macgregor should take note, this is the difference between what he did pointlessly at the start of the fight, and doing it meaningfully later in the fight
    Macgregor is helpless... and its done.
    The fight is stopped cuz basically, all mayweather had tto do was keep pounding on his chin and his strong constitution wouldnt stay up
    Macgregor can take a punch, most other guys would have already been on the floor,
    The fight had to be stopped cuz even if you can take a punch, downing him would have happened anyways and he would have sustained more damage, such as concussion

    So yeah, the fight imo, was one sided, due to strategy
    Macgregor no doubt would win with gloves off cuz mayweather isnt trained for that.
    But you cant undrestimate the power of strategy and good defence in boxing, and how defence is used to drag out weaknesses
    Magregor was a strong opponent, but not a threat,
    What I mean by that is, you cant bum rush macgregor and KO him, so hes strong... he can take a punch, hed definately clip you and keep clipping because of a steel jaw, no all out attack would work
    BUT, he was full of weaknesses, and by making these weaknesses ACCUMULATE, he could then be picked apart and deconstructed,

    A more famous example of this same strategy was Ali and his rope-a-dope
    Though that was much more physical, this was still the same idea, but executed more casually


    Ok, so now how do you get defence like mayweather so you can kite and string along a strong opponent?
    How can you accumulate his weaknessses and then have a direct line to his chin?

    Well there are two ways, there is a martial arts way, like in mma etc, and there is a boxing way
    Let me first briefly get to the mma way before I get to the boxing way

    In mma you basically achieve this with distancing, strong strikes and kicks are used to deter encroachment, usually leg kicks to start, but then any other intimidating strrike after that to cause a person to hesitate. This happens in bursts, meaning fatigue doesnt accumulate as much, so in order to get it to accumulate you need to up the frequency, until the opponent is on the back foot, then he will tire faster than you, by you leaning on his neck, putting weight on him, and making him "fight his way out" of a bad spot.
    This is using OFFENCE to accumulate advantages.

    In boxing, you do not do this, you use DEFENCE to accumulate the advantage.
    I decribed how it was done byy commenting on the fight above, but basically in order to drag out weaknesses you need to nullify CHEAP SHOTS and bursts of attacking force.
    This is not done by ABSORBING the force, it is done by making the ATTACKER absorb his own force.
    You make an attacker absorb his own striking force by making his punches MISS. Then all the force of the strike has to be pulled back in.
    This quickly deters attacks if the opponent is an inefficieent attacker and not in a dominant position.
    You cannot of course stop someone still TRYING to all out attack you, but it is discouraged because from your defensive pocket you can strike back and punish sloppy or inaccurate attacks.
    1) dodge
    2) equalise, with a few forceful strikes to disrupt positioning
    3) do not reciprocate, gain information and fatigue the opponent

    If that holds up, boom, you got it.



    Now, technically, how do you dodge at maximum human potential?
    This is a skill only boxers and dancers really know
    You have to master your core and lateral muscles, so that you can pivot without being in a seated position

    In martial arts like karate, you are taught to punch in a stance like horse stance, and THAT is a SEATED position
    Its origin is that back in the day, samurai actually used to ride horses, so they utilised it in the jujitsu they used
    Karate then was extracted out of jujitsu and made into a striking art, but KEPT vestiges of grappling arts in how it grounds its strikes
    Karate makes up for this weakness in its agility by its precision and ability to very rapidly strike pressure points without flinching
    It is very tough, and very potent, making a direct asssault on a beefy karate guy, like walking into a punch to the neeck... not fun

    However karate has poor agility, due to its SEATED position. Though a seated position DOES give more precision and directness.
    Boxing, uses a far more complicated and difficult skill to ground its punches. It uses a LIFTED position.
    In traditional martial arts this is considered an idiot move, because it makes you easy to trip, but in boxing it survived.
    This lifted position is something DANCERS also do. Fred estair for example.

    To achieve this mastery of the core muscles takes a lot of work. But basically, a slight tweak of a lateral muscle needs to pivot your body immediately.
    If you pivot from your center your body will remain equally balanced, if you pivot from a contraction of you lateral muscles, your pivot will occur around a point that is off center.
    This is superior when you want to be AGILE. The imbalance essentially speedily shifts your center of balance out of harms way, and this gives you about 1 foot to 3 feet of movement to work with, if not more. You can use extreme of your range to shift SIX FEET, though that takes a preperation move to achieve and is essentially just two 3 foot moves connected together.

    How much agility do you need to avoid punches?
    Well most people think of it in terms of an opponents reach, so if a guy has a reach of a good arm length they think you need 3 feet to get out of the way
    But that is ONLY for last resort, if you watch boxers they will only dodge three feet to get out of a bad combination that is approaching, or if an opponent hasa perfectly clear shot line up directly at their head.
    Normally they use about 1 foot or half a foot (as a twicthy lil slip)

    To avoid all punches in general though, you want about a foot and a half. You cannot achieve that in a seated stance like in karate. You might achieve that oncee, but under repeated pressure it is no good to be seated, you need a lateral pivot to make the 1 and a half foot weave to be sustainable under pressure..

    What are you dodging?
    Do not dodge the fist or arm, dodge the elbow
    Basically the elbow can really only create a circle of about a foot, so if you are 1 anda half foot, your head can get out of the way of any elbow position thhat comes up, and ANSWER each position.
    if their elbow goes left,, stick right, if it goes right stick left. If it comes frward stick back, if it comes too far forward stick forward and JAM the position before pivoting out.
    If they are a bit back and you feel they will lunge forward, stick forwards to bait thhem in, and then weave to one side to bait them, then stick t the opposite side and pivot out.

    If the elbow cant point at your head, the punch cant connect with force.
    So if you use a tight one and a half foot you can troll the punch
    And then save 3 foot weaves for emergency


    This is why connor was toothless
    He undeerestimated just how much defence this affords mayweather



    You cant punch that shit, unless you KNOW how he's dodging
    You counter that dodging by using misdirection to obscure his read on your elbows, by using a glove to impeed his vision, and body movement to alter the path of your strike. Also baiting him into your punches half a foot can cause it to fall apart... but that is a whole othher subject.
    Defence that good cannot be HACKED TO DEATH
    And thats why, mayweather won and was not going to lose from that very first round
    He had this in his pocket and macgregor didnt know, or properly prepare

    If you are gonna fight mayweather, you gotta have an answer to this or poof, your offence goes UP IN SMOKE
    But this is one of the greatist strengths of boxing,
    "Hack attacks are no good here"
    Thought Id share and remind ya'll, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee



    Same with girls
    Don't HACK
    Float and "sting" (with a flirt at just the right time)

  • #2
    So lovely to read! Im having a big urge to pick up martial arts again lately (ugh chronic injuries), so please let me add a bit of how I view martial arts first to vent the passion a little - whomever finds it interesting

    When I was boxing I mostly based my defence (past the basics of parrying and blocking) on angles (you face your opponent while he doesnt face you), the gross version is where your feet are compared to your opponent (body follows feet), the more nuanced one when in range is to get the head off center while opponent is striking, then countering while opponent is exposed.

    The art of angling I always found super interesting and appealed to me as superior (it's a legit philosophy of not getting hit, not based on being super fast or a fluke) as opposed to in fighting based on reflex and speed.

    However, when in range and not having a superior angle and just relying on the head off center works in boxing, yet not when grappling or kicking is involved. If legs are somewhere they can be kicked... as soon your front leg is kicked the opponent can take over with a flurry of punches (unless you calculate for this, but its a losing strategy). Or you just get your head kicked hehe.

    When kicks are involved one should be able to have the body ready to check or block kicks.. have a solid base for impact and taking some shots to time well to take over when opponent is somehow exposed.. this is when fighting in range and you do calculate for the hits... because if youd only fight on the edge of kicking range youll almost never have the ability to throw a punch. Thats why youll see those brutal exchanges in muay thai. Its a way of showing skill (taking some hits and takin over). Seemed silly to me first, but its a very realistic way of how a fight could end up once getting into a superior angle when getting in range doesn't suffice. Unless you're Petrosyan

    Yeah in MMA the gross angling is really important, being just in or out of kicking / takedown threat range and setting up to get inside with a good angle. I noticed mcgregor did this kinda well, setting up attacks with a good angle.

    but of course Mayweather can keep up with that and is master at all aspects of boxing. I already told how I despised this fight as it made no sense from a sports perspective. (Sensationally it made a lot of sense course!).. the guy has years of experience of pacing a match, and there was only a supersmall chance Conors unique skills (setting up for those few lethal attacks) could pose a threat to the wellrounded experience in boxing of MW. But thats the charm of betting


    Yeah I like your read on how MW made McGregor work and work... having to overreach in volume that he had to tire (he usually will set up / lure the opponent into a few very solid shots that can end the fight)

    as relevant to PU: Id say a fluke is reminiscent of going for DTF only and doing heavy screening and you might miss out on a lot of girls by not buying time and do things sparingly. Or only going for BT pumps and going for the straight pull. Mayweather doesnt need to pump the BT too aggressively, he knows he has it (sufficient tension constantly) and will pull the trigger when the dinner is served cooked up well. Not just throwing the food on the biggest fire for a minute. But yeah mcgregor is still very skillfull at going for those killing shots. He does set up well, just doesnt have enough going for him in boxing to pace a match and needed to rely on just the threat of hitting well and hard but it didnt suffice. (Who would expect him really?). need more tools in the box to be effective (which i dont blame him for, hes not built his carreer around boxing), less spikey ones, although BT spikes are beautiful when used sparingly on top of other good stuff, just to get that little bit of extra momentum going to move things forward

    Comment


    • #3
      mayweathers style comes from archie moore.. the secret to the defense of may and any great boxer ..is head over the back foot and not over the front! look at the great boxers of 20s to 40s..their head is off the center and their chin is tucked behind the lead shoulder ...allowing built in defense! another principle is using the lead foot and keeping it pointed at the centerlline at all time so they do not let their opponents get an angle on them.ANother thing that allows you to not get decked ..is level changing ...getting your head low and shooting the jab up(the up jab) allows to you to keep your head safe and opens rights to the body and lastly boxers back then moved their head while they punched(check out tony canzoneri he was a master at this ! as was tommy loughran. If you gotta rely on reflexes to dodge punches in boxing you are doing it wrong ...Mayweather does not rely on reflexes !

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Grodmeister General View Post
        mayweathers style comes from archie moore.. the secret to the defense of may and any great boxer ..is head over the back foot and not over the front! look at the great boxers of 20s to 40s..their head is off the center and their chin is tucked behind the lead shoulder ...allowing built in defense! another principle is using the lead foot and keeping it pointed at the centerlline at all time so they do not let their opponents get an angle on them.ANother thing that allows you to not get decked ..is level changing ...getting your head low and shooting the jab up(the up jab) allows to you to keep your head safe and opens rights to the body and lastly boxers back then moved their head while they punched(check out tony canzoneri he was a master at this ! as was tommy loughran. If you gotta rely on reflexes to dodge punches in boxing you are doing it wrong ...Mayweather does not rely on reflexes !
        Actually, reflexes quicken if you train it well
        For example, when tree branches swing at my face when I walk down a street not paying enough attention, I've dodged them in the split second I had by pure reflex
        Lol, once a pigeon came right at my face and I just dodged it (idiot pigeon)

        If you train the actions right, it is like greasing up a wheel
        And once the wheel is greasey it stays greasey and you remain hard to hit cuz you trained your reflexes what to do in each spot

        But yes
        You want an inactive strategy or pattern too
        Similar to feinting, it makes a person less capable of locking on or deciding how to hit you

        I always find those 1940s guys punches hilarious btw
        So many wild haymakers one after the other causing them to topple over


        Actually, I bring up using the elbows, because it is an old trick I learrnt in jujitsu
        You basically smother the one foot elbow radius or do sweeping blocks across it and guys cant hit you
        Same principle with your head, you sweep across that one foot radius and all around it, in order to practice
        I avoid just randomly moving my head with no purpose :P
        Its gotta be an educated move based on the possibility your opponent currently has
        You shut down or make awkward his possibility

        But yeah man, the backfoot is a good point
        You cant really master it without good foot positioning
        Though, using lateral abdominal muscles well to lighten your feet up is key
        If you sit on your back foot its no good

        Comment


        • Grodmeister General
          Editing a comment
          I never said reflexes or quicken or slow down but to use that as your defense is wrong thats being reactive instead of proactive ..again watch jack demspey throw his right hand around gene tunneys jab ..that was proactive defense(dempseys head was inside the jab) the guys from the 40s destroy modern guys a lotta those looping punches are to go around defense ,,,and they actually had better balance than todays modern fighters ..in fact the smoothest boxers on film with perfect balance are joe louis ezzard charles and sugar ray robinson who happened to box in .....the 1940s!

      • #5
        A small but devilish tactic maywater further used
        first 4-5 min - continuosly pushing MCs right hand down 1) tirering it 2) iducing a rythmic pattern in MCs response 3) used a few times to create holes but not really utilised for this for short term gains which makes one wonder. Seems more decepitve to slowly induce a response model and tire the frontside defense (which is closer to reach).
        5+ he changes and jabs in straight w defense being literally gone + adding cross follow-ups and combos that hits hard and direct from the dominant position.
        sneaky
        Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

        Glows Log

        Comment


        • #6
          Yeah Grod, gotta love sugar ray's smooth style, hes such a beast too...
          I agree on being proactive btw, just making the point that training it increases reflex time,
          There is something I call the dominant position, you never really wanna give that to anyone for free cuz from there people can blow up your defence. In tai chi its called the garden and if you ever give it up they consider the fight lost. You should get a solid jab on them if they try to take it, in jujitsu I called it keeping them off center, meaning I'd always push or twist the person so they cant come straight through.. In chess it is called avoiding the passive position.
          If they slip that jab, and counterstrike, like Canzoneri, ha, no fun unless you gtfo the way, which is what keeps boxing interesting.
          There is also a minor point here, that for the same reason you don't want to be giving up the center of the ring, cuz that can lead to dominant position and cutting up your defence, or making you tire yourself out moving.

          Easiest way to beat boxers btw, is to keep up with them, and then just keep them off center, get behind them and throw.
          The most annoying thing in boxing for me was, you arent allowed to do that, and you have fatass gloves on that slow hand/wrist movement.
          In actual fights without fatass gloves I can pick off punches five times faster than anyone can throw them, by using wrist twitch type deflections (kungfu style).
          Its mostly the fat gloves that are the cause to getting punched in the head as much as happens.
          Boxing evasion though... oh man, I could NOT resist learning that, and the full bodied punches.
          Belissimo!

          Macgregor totally underestimated the depth of boxing, both in terms of defence and strategy.
          He was a turtle flipped on its back...
          Still strong and solid though.

          Glow: yeah that stuff is to evoke weakness
          You really do want to be a nuisance, cuz it makes people make mistakes, like rushing you or dropping their guard

          Comment


          • #7
            I personally love how Foreman used his shoulders and crossed guard to turtle up and counter against Michael Moorer in '94 - at the age of friggging 45!!!
            Worst speed and agility against a younger stud, but his opponent could not open him without firing a lot!!!
            At the end of the fight Foreman got the upper hand and lashed out to the victory!

            https://www.ringtv.com/362817-george...0-years-later/

            Though when talking boxing, the best defense "in offense" goes hands down to Tyson! Tucked elbows, high shoulders, bent head and lots of lateral movement at the hips!
            Also superb footwork which leads to the perfect combination of evasion + momentum to unleash attacks. Guy was a freight train!
            personal blog: https://realpob.wordpress.com/

            Comment


            • Grodmeister General
              Editing a comment
              foremans teacher was the great archie moore who combined that turtle with bobbing and weaving! mike was easy to hit great offense the guy he was modeled after jack dempsey was better suited! the perfect combo of footwork and built in defense was the greatest heavy of all time JOE LOUIS!
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