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  • salary negotiation

    Hi Guys,

    I have a problem whith getting my desired raise concerning my salary. I'm paylevel 3 and I want paylevel 4.
    In my office are 3 people. 2 new people who are both 4 and me who is 3. Both are a bit older but I'm the oldest in the office and I have the most knowledge in our field. What fucks me up, is that I teach them how stuff works and I'm in 3 while the people who learn from me are in 4. wtf is this shit. As you see I'm ultra angry.

    My boss is super chilled and relaxed and layed back. I dont know if he plays any games or not, but I always slows everything down with sentence like "Yeah I know that you want it, and I'm with you. I try to convince our big boss. BUT IT TAKES SOME TIME" Everything always takes some time. I always need to wait 1-2 weeks after every talking.

    In october I was in first. And he told me "shure you are 4 material and I'm with you with that. I talked to the big boss and he told me that it's okay but he demands in Februar because thats better for the planning."

    Now it'S februar and I had 2 meetings.
    In the first meeting, the first thing he said was he isnt prepared for the talk. Then he told me that he forgot what was made out in oktober. He said he will talk to the personal department and we have another meeting. He also again said that he is on my said but he has problems convinging the big boss and he needs to change his attitude.

    Now I had the second meeting. The plot her was that he told me he was in the personal department and I should have gotten a raise in Januar. Which I of couse not got. He was sure shure that I got a raise of an extra of 150 euro (no raise in paylevel). He also said that he and the personal development are beliefing that I need to be in 4 and the they both try to get me in 4 BUT IT TAKES A TIME. That makes me crazy. Again waiting. Again no clue how long waiting.

    My theory is that they want to avoid the 4 for me. thats why he says, I should have gotten a raise of 150 as extra. That should make me shut up and dont annoy him. however he gave me a verbal yes in februar and in oktober for the 4. and In both scenarious he gave the responsability the big boss. I dont know if he ever talked to him. I feel pranked so hard..


    I dont know what to do next. Which strategy can you recommend. Whats your opinion ?


  • #2
    I heard many failing with that silly strategy. There is no 'socialism' in the work place. Give up now.
    (Applying for jobs is _only_ reliable way to get raise offers from your employer. EVERYONE knows.)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kijjjji View Post
      I heard many failing with that silly strategy. There is no 'socialism' in the work place. Give up now.
      (Applying for jobs is _only_ reliable way to get raise offers from your employer. EVERYONE knows.)
      So what do you earn?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bexx View Post
        Whats your opinion ?
        You are putting up with shit and reaping the rewards.

        Comment


        • Bexx

          Bexx

          commented
          Editing a comment
          What are you referring to?

        • Guest's Avatar
          Guest commented
          Editing a comment
          Well, you let them string you along for months with bad excuses and obviously empty promises.
          You are also "angry" but apparently not willing to enforce any sanctions. So their strategy is working

          Now I don't know whether you actually have better opportunities or what your bargaining power is so I can't advice you on the specifics.

      • #5
        There is no socialism in this process. It's just negotiation. If at all I ask about your personal expirience and your expirience as influencer. Not how to pick my boss. On the other side some strategy can not hurt. I call bullshit on the only way is to find another job.

        Comment


        • ijjjji

          ijjjji

          commented
          Editing a comment
          I thought you wanted advice, rather than pat on shoulder. Begging is hardly the same as negotiating. What will be your bargaining chip? If you can come up with another than showing willingness to leave, then go for it. (By socialism, I was referring to wanting the same as others. Sorry if that was unclear.)
          (Look, even the ..... above agrees..)

        • Guest's Avatar
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          kijjjji, why didn't you answer what you earn yourself, or what you have earned?
          If you are such an expert on bargaining you should have an easy time doing this.

          Have you even had a job recently?

      • #6
        Hey ijjjji 1. in your first comment say you see many guys fail with that silly strategy. What silly strategy you are reffering to? Can you explain the strategy?

        2. My bargain chip are following.:

        2.1 Meanwhile I'm the one with the most expirience in my team.

        2.2 Our team are 3 people. Both people are in group 4 while I'm in 3. And I'm the one who teach them how stuff works.

        2.3 the offical paper that describes the work and responsability of each group compared with what I do says I totally need to be in 4

        2.4 Last year Two people left the team and I was the only one left. Until The other new guys came(the ones I'm teaching). In this time I did all the work alone. I did the work of the ex leader who was in 5 and
        the other member who was in 4. = That means I do alone my work plus the work of two people who are in higher group then me.

        2.5 The responsability I meanwhile hold are more then doubled

        2.6 I have a monopol knowledge in many parts of the working area my team is in.


        My question mainly aimed to how to overcome their tactics of excusing and let me wait and how to get on point.

        ijjjji I understand that having other job opportunities working best as bargain chip. My problem is that I really dont want to leave the company. I love it her. I love my work. I love my coworkers. I'm 100 identified with what I do her. I just want to be the fair paid. I know this is a mistake. But on theo ther side I dont belief that my CEO is impressed when I tell him I have a job offer with better conditions. He is not working like that. At least he doesnt dispays it. He always displays that he is most interested in a good non violent communication, he is hell introverted and a big thinker. by the way he is ober 60 years lol..


        sparxx now you see my bargain chips..

        Comment


        • ijjjji

          ijjjji

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Chips are very good. Now you only have to decide if you want to actually bet with them or not. (Or rather to what degree. I mean, who could blame you for going to a few job interviews, all things taken into account?)

        • Guest's Avatar
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          And kijjji is still dodging all questions about his own career and earnings. How surprising from a proven liar.

      • #7
        Originally posted by Bexx View Post
        My problem is that I really dont want to leave the company. I love it her. I love my work. I love my coworkers. I'm 100 identified with what I do her. I just want to be the fair paid. I know this is a mistake. But on theo ther side I dont belief that my CEO is impressed when I tell him I have a job offer with better conditions. He is not working like that. At least he doesnt dispays it. He always displays that he is most interested in a good non violent communication, he is hell introverted and a big thinker. by the way he is ober 60 years lol..
        .
        Not being willing to leave has a name in pickup, it is called "being needy". The result of being needy is women pissing on you or stringing you along in the friend zone with empty promises for indefinite amounts of time. Just transfer this logic to your situation and it may become a bit clearer to you.

        You are actually getting "fair paid" according to market standards if you love your working situation so much that you are unwilling to leave despite the pay.

        Also if you know you are making mistakes, but still ask for input you are an askhole, sorry to point it out.

        I also suggest you stop taking advice from kijjjji until he proves he has ever had a well-paying job. There is literally zero evidence this guy has ever gotten laid or having achieved any kind of success in other aspects of life which explains why he just posts contrarian crap and extremely vague advice.

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        • #8
          Wow Why did I know that you commend on the last section of my past post instead of discussing the bargain chips you wanted to know. Also you ignoring the fact that I hold the strong opinion that my ceo isnt impressed by job offers. He let the people go. You need to be more clever with him.


          askhole.. shure just because the suggested way is no option means that the other ways are not getting discussed or what? I ask for specific help not a generalized advice or a how to follow a negotiating template... If you dont feel my bargain chips or my arguements are strong we dont need to discuss..

          Comment


          • #9
            Originally posted by Bexx View Post
            Wow Why did I know that you commend on the last section of my past post instead of discussing the bargain chips you wanted to know. Also you ignoring the fact that I hold the strong opinion that my ceo isnt impressed by job offers. He let the people go. You need to be more clever with him.

            askhole.. shure just because the suggested way is no option means that the other ways are not getting discussed or what? I ask for specific help not a generalized advice or a how to follow a negotiating template... If you dont feel my bargain chips or my arguements are strong we dont need to discuss..
            Because your bargain chips mean ZERO if you aren't willing to put down your foot with real sanctions. Your superiors probably understand this and will thus just string you along with empty promises, delays, shit talk etc.

            Also if you actually knew how to handle your boss you would not have this problem in the first place, so don't come here and say what you need to do.

            Now I am addressing your ACTUAL problem, feel free to ignore it and whine more about how "unfair" the workplace is

            Actually, this reminds me of telling a chode to get out of oneitis by some chic stringing him along for ever with empty promises, there will usually be furious resistance to the ACTUAL solution, that is to hard next her and GFTOW. Instead there will be loads of whining about how unfair the world is and how horrible women are. And more threads inquiring for the mysterious elusive solution to something extremely simple.

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            • #10
              My opinion is this
              From a boss' perspective "why should I care? what is your need, and don't tell me it is cuz everyone else is getting it" and also "I don't care how productive you are, this isn't a place where I stress meritocracy"
              So I'd assume the boss would prefer an "us vs them" argument better, like "make me a higher rank, give me more, and in exchange cut this other crap out"
              But you gotta have the balls

              From a worker perspective, many bosses are numb and brain dead and will fuck with you forever
              Be ready to fight hard for shit

              From MY perspective,
              Dude its hard, I don't know the answer, probably cuz there isn't one
              When you are a worker, no one gives a fuck, cuz you are the help
              YOU place importance on it for free for them out of the sheer desire to be seen as better than other workers
              Its kinda jacked up

              I can't suggest anything good
              Just look elsewhere for a bit I guess, try what you can
              Maybe take the boss out to dinner and get him laid, lol

              "have you met my friends, patricia, alicia, and naomi yet, you should have a drink with us"
              You know, be a leader of men and all that
              Get him saying "fuck i like this guy, lol" "dammit get that guy his raise, just dock the other dudes pay, say its cut backs, erhm, when can i see alicia again, you got her number bro?"


              The way I would do it however is this
              "hey man can I talk to the boss"
              "yo i just want to get to know who im working for a bit, your outlook on things, how its been going"
              "how'd you manage to start this up, its pretty cool what you set up here, not many can tout success you know"
              "you ever get time off, go to gym, hit clubs, or go do sports etc?"

              I'd get to know him a few times, build a rapport, then id casually drop a mention of, how he came up with the pay scheme and what its based on, and like, if he knows there are cases where actual experience and seniority are outta wack, dudes teaching guys who get paid more. I'd mention it might be an awkward thing to fix but I'd help.
              Stuff like that

              But the boss has to be a likeable enough guy

              Comment


              • #11
                Disclaimer: I've seldomly been in the position to bargain salary with my bosses because for the last few years I was usually either a) working for free schools where I knew they had no money because I could see the balances or b) had left after a short time for other reasons anyway so it never really came up.
                I have quite successfully negotiated for a lot of decision power in my specific area though, so I suppose what I learned there can be applied to bargaining for money too since it's another type of currency.

                Basically I agree with what the others were saying before. You have listed a few items that could serve as potential bargaining chips, but at the moment they are all worthless because you are not using them and your boss knows it. The best time to bargain for that raise would probably have been before you started teaching those other two because you've probably been invaluable then. Now the more you teach them, the easier you yourself can be replaced, and the longer you can be strung along the more your value increases in that regard. To put it very shortly, it's about this:
                - how valuable is your contribution to the achievement your boss needs?
                - how unique is your contribution to the achievement your boss needs?
                - how willing you are to walk away if you don't get what you want/need?
                - how potentially dangerous is the fact of you leaving?
                - how close is the potential threat of you leaving?

                You are currently reducing your uniqueness by teaching others, while heightening the value of the others in your team by teaching them, thus in comparison losing value again.
                Your boss has tested the waters by delaying your request and has figured out you're not really willingn to go, he can string you along almost indefinitely.
                I don't know about item 4 in your case, this includes any inside knowledge you could refer to the competition or whether you could start your own company and all this, or sue them or whatever.

                Usually bargaining doesn't work well if you don't include item 5, which is incorporating time into the equation. Don't say "give me more money or I will leave", say "I want a decision until date X, and if I don't have it I will do Y". Obviously, you have to be ready to follow through with that or you're fucked.


                By the way, about the "I love this company", I've been working for a lot of different institutions and companies for the last few years and thought "this is the best one so far!" many times, just to realize when starting anew at another one that the new one actually trumped the last one. So don't let that hold you back.

                And lastly, if you're not willing to walk and impose a potential real threat of you leaving if you don't get X by date Y (be reasonable obviously) then you can stop thinking about the whole thing, really. If I were your boss, I wouldn't give you a raise either, simply because I don't have to. Or I would give it to you if I had the money, but I would pretty much not really respect you or think you deserve it.

                Try to see it from your bosses perspective, why should he care to give you a raise? Ignore "because it's fair", just figure out what about giving you a raise can be beneficial to him? He doesn't really profit himself from giving you a raise, so why should he care? If however he knows for a fact that you'll be leaving by date X if he doesn't and he really needs you, you've change the issue to be something he actually cares about personally, and he will deal with it one way or another (just be prepared to leave if it's the "another" way, that's the risk you're taking).

                Jester
                Bunterrichten - Alternativen zum Unter-richten:

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                • #12
                  Originally posted by Jester View Post
                  - how unique is your contribution to the achievement your boss needs?
                  - how willing you are to walk away if you don't get what you want/need?
                  - how potentially dangerous is the fact of you leaving?
                  - how close is the potential threat of you leaving?
                  I see all these reasons as from the 50s and not really landing well today
                  I mean, that works in a time of strong unions willing to make it hurt if they don't listen to that stuff

                  Today I think you need to brush entitlement thinking aside and act as an individual in your best interests


                  Lol, just relate to them first, create a rapport
                  If you can't do that, then you are a nobody
                  And no boss will ever listen to a nobody

                  Not saying Bexx can do this of course, thats why I said I dunno what HE should do, just keep trying

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                  • #13
                    Shure I can do it. I build regular rapport with my chef. I'm propably the most popular co-worker in our department. I always had a freaking problem with cold approaches but general socialicing is no problem for me.
                    Let's seewhat happens. I talked to the leader of the personal department today and he told me that next week, they have a meeting with the company leader and my boss to discuss my salary. He also stated that it's true that he and my boss argueing for my upgrade to group 4.

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                    • #14
                      Originally posted by Bexx View Post
                      Shure I can do it. I build regular rapport with my chef. I'm propably the most popular co-worker in our department. I always had a freaking problem with cold approaches but general socialicing is no problem for me.
                      Let's seewhat happens. I talked to the leader of the personal department today and he told me that next week, they have a meeting with the company leader and my boss to discuss my salary. He also stated that it's true that he and my boss argueing for my upgrade to group 4.
                      Ask yourself the question, why the fuck should anybody pay you more if you are 1) not willing to leave 2) will do the same job anyway and 3) just whine and complain a bit on the internetz?

                      I would surely NOT give you a raise with such "sanctions"

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                      • #15
                        I never displayed that I'm not willing to leave. Because of the fact that the last two guys of my team left last year. My boss needs to consider that I'm also willing to leave. And I guess he must be scared about the fact that when I'm leaving it can lead to really bad situations.

                        And other thing is, I'm willing to take the first steps like ordering a testimony from our company and do go for searching another job not just yet at the moment. I try to solve it other wise.

                        The other sanctions I could put out, is that I'm just dont do the work anymore that is stuff for salary group 4.

                        Just for exmample today in the morning around 100 people couldnt work with the program I'm administrator of, because yesterday in the evening someone from the server management team put an update without information on and destroyed some of our functonality. I shurely take some instant action to make the system work again. Conserding this consequence I could say, not my beer. I dont get paid for that responsability.


                        whine and complain.. what shall I they do this. From my point of view I just asked for help in my specific situation. That searching another job and threating for leaving is an option I of course know. Wtf I'm not stupid. I just thought that here I found something more clever for my situation...

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