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  • #46
    I'll put in my two bits (Hi!)

    As far as blogs are concerned, pua is pretty dead. Unless you count Girls Chase, or Roosh perhaps. If you go on Youtube there are literally hundreds of men posting "Infield and date to same day lay!" type content. There are guys like Matt Artisan with 600k subscribers, RSD, and countless other guys with ten k subs. If you watch any of these channels, they all almost say exactly the same thing.

    Whattsapp has become a big forum alternative. Most people view content with their smart phones, and these groups are thriving in every single city. I know Toronto has at least three Whattsapp groups. I also have a Whattsapp book club with about 25 members.

    Instagram takes up everyone's time.

    Infinite content. Everyone has information overload.

    Personally I don't post because I write this stuff for work. I get paid for it. I've been writing about pickup for twelve years. Unless it's going to make me money, I don't have a reason to write much on forums, since they're low return and high investment. There's not a lot I can learn here anymore. It was super fun when I was starting out, as it was one of the few good places to find info. There were zero youtube videos on pickup in 2007. I think some of the first were from Mehow. "Woo hoo!"

    Now I can't even count the number of ebooks, Youtubes, etc about pickup. Then there's Reddit, twitch, and more.

    Pua stuff isn't just mainstream... it's almost common knowledge. Just listen to Elliot Hulse, Joe Rogan, or basically any marginally red pilled Youtuber. They and nearly all of their guests grew up on this stuff.

    On my blog, 60% of the readers are on mobile. It's a real pain in the ass to type on mobile. That's why people read but don't type. They're not on laptops.

    And not to offend you guys, but you keep saying you're "years ahead" of everyone else. But I just see the exact same topics over and over. Pickup isn't complicated. I'd like to see something really new and powerful though. That would be great. I have a hard time coming up with anything new. The only guy I know who knows how to make the same thing sound new is Krauser, because he invented his own language and terminologies.

    The culture of pua is pretty dead too, aside from RSD, which has Whattsapp groups in every city. Again, all of the Gurus except maybe Chase are Youtubers now. And there's a dozen more every day.

    The new cultures are MGTOW, Redpill, Digital Nomad, culture war and others. They're more interested in Bitcoin than approach anxiety, because the question has been answered, in great depth! If you google Approach Anxiety you'll 260 million hits. People are more interested in complaining about feminism than hearing 99 version of push pull and GFTOG. Most want to hear the ten best countries to live as a location independent and find Poosy Paradise.

    In my opinion, this culture is just saturated, and the information isn't new. Maybe that's a good thing. There'll always be guys looking to get good with girls, but with access to so much info, why ask a question on a little forum?

    I love coming from MASF. It helped me a lot in my day because there wasn't a lot to choose from. But if I was just starting out I don't even know where I'd begin.
    Last edited by Zardoz; 01-11-2019, 07:14 AM.
    I'm Tony D of
    Check out my Pua books on Amazon


    • Skills360


      Editing a comment
      zardoz preach it... best video ever let me give it a plug

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Had a small epiphany last night, that YT/stream/vlog is basically taking over the entire world of advice, DIY & self help. (Talking to young people and realizing how they now use YT exclusively, when there is something they need to figure out...) So yeah, if one PU forum still lives 5 years from now, its probably the forum that attached itself strongly to some youtube channels or similar.. So yeah, both of you more vids please - its very clearly where the future of 'PU' lies

  • #47
    I would argue that the primary function of pickup / seduction forums. . . is to establish a culture based around improvement in pickup.

    It's this culture which will keep a forum growing, and improving instead of dying out. This includes newer / intermediate community guys asking questions and learning from the more experienced. A consistent cycle of community guys coming into the forum then leveling up and improving. AND innovation born from awe inspiring lay reports and quality discussions, where the experienced bounce (field tested) ideas and cutting-edge techniques off each other.

    For example let's say I have a decent bit of tech. After discussing this technique with a number of other good seducers. It will evolve into something even more effective.

    The problems I have noticed here stem from a whole lot of ego, and not nearly as much accomplishment. Let me explain. It's fine to be a little on the smug side, if you're a very effective seducer. . . because getting to this point takes lots of hard work. So in a way you've EARNED the right to take pride in your accomplishments. To have your points and ideas respected. Or to write in posts and threads with a bit of sass or swagger.

    However, if you haven't reached this point yet. Like you haven't accomplished much and still have a lot of sticking points. Or areas where you can still grow a lot.

    And you're still asking for the same level of respect as the guys who put in the work. Then I think it's fair to say, you are trying to put the cart before the horse. It is straight up silly behavior that has and will continue to cause forum problems. (Which I'll get to in a moment.) Additionally, I think it is actually counter productive to ask experienced members to tolerate that behavior from those who just haven't earned it yet. It goes against the primary function of pickup forums.

    Because if you tolerate some new or intermediate seducer freely posting incorrect speculations, and limiting beliefs as if they are facts. Or giving you an attitude when you point out his mistakes. Or dishing out warped reframes about women and seduction. As well as other forms of nonsense. Then he's never going to get better.

    That kind of tolerance doesn't help guys improve. Instead it's just a recipe for creating more and more keyboard jockeys. Until you have a forum where they outnumber the members with useful things to say. Because like I said earlier. . . becoming an effective seducer takes hard work. Oftentimes it might even require you getting some tough love. Or being pushed a bit by experienced members. Pushed to see what you did wrong and how you can improve. Pushed to come face to face with cognitive dissonance.

    Pushed to become a more attractive, persuasive and arguably. . . a better version of yourself. At least when it comes to the opposite sex.

    Most of us were pushed in one way or another before we got good. Because even though it can sting, it does work. And once you're very good at this, it becomes rather easy for you to be able to ascertain the skill level of other members. Game really does recognize game after all. So in conclusion, doesn't it make sense that the experienced members on a pickup forum, would know exactly how to inspire improvement in the members that need it?

    Anyway like others I'm tired of talking about this, and still seeing these issues continue to perpetuate. So I'd rather put my focus elsewhere.

    That's why I've been inactive. Regardless, I'm thankful for the guys I've learned from here. . . I've had some great discussions and fond memories because of this place. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've had here to send the ladder back down too. Cheers.
    You know I cant hear none of that spend the night shit... that kumbaya shit


    • #48
      Originally posted by Grodmeister General View Post
      we get more activity if we post, stuff for infield no weird ass theory crap (ijjji,cost of success and glow) are guilty ,and if we all posted more field reports , there should be more field reports than any other type of post , but those posts are the least type of posts being posted , this place gets unappealing cuz it's a theory forum not an action one and I'm looking at top guys too, field reports or journalizing .
      Grodmeister General : its a little more complex than that. your so-called "calling our asses out" is on the whining level and wasting our time.

      Let me illustrate why your "theory claim" is wrong on me as an example:

      You say that Glow is all theory - lets look at an array of My latest posts posted before this

      And others where i comment in or cowork w an array of people in here:

      And troubleshooting posts (didnt have time to find more but i post issues i need help w/perspective on):

      Several others but these were just the latest ones and some i have saved. i am pretty sure most people dont see that as theory made out of nothing.

      > i consider most of my posts pragmatics and theyre either things im working on, observations from field, practical dos/technique-angles or questions related to field.Often on the way to understanding something.
      > I purposely made 2 logs for notes and my own abstractions. I chose them as logs NOT to disturb the mainforums and keep them out of the newest post highlights.

      Lastly cozy and i speak some about gen2 escalation and the likes. Or i mostly ask in as its hard to find intel on it and hes been uber-cool to share much and give guidance. As im born out of gun, sixty, sleazy and their writings more than anything its great. Where mystery method discusses Kiss close rutines - we discuss make-out intuition. just to mention a simple known but harder to grasp concept. This is a felt capability and thus if you dont hold reference - you cannot understand it. So what you call hieroglyphs are language about those capabilities and methods. This is just to explain that it will appear cloudy and abstract. Especially cause we digged deeply into 2gen escalation to whole other level. It is a method if you will developed through MASF/2ndgen and KEY to this community if it claims to bear MASF further.
      As skills writes why do you even care? are you that arrogant that you assume we dont know anything?

      Beyond that - theory or what one can call the reflective discussions we have in here are very key to getting results. to use a model that is operationally oriented - Fighter pilots follow this model called the ooda loop for learning loops which shows the role of "theory" or various aspects of theory and fast reflections in what makes PU look like a joy ride i show it as its highly action-based and display the need for orientation and feedback loops. that is btw the oldest of debates. There are many reasons for various level of insigth generation to be used. I think what everyone hates is pure speculation based on no theory and no field. But being so black and white is just dummyfying for it all.

      i rest my case. - drop your egocentric view of things, Get with the program & show some respect for others.
      Heard you not the type that you take home to mom

      Glows Log


      • Grodmeister General
        Editing a comment
        I dont care about all that dude ,most of the time when I critique your post and not you the poster you never answer the criticism of the method, you do what you are doing now, run or demand I just dont challenge what you wrote .

      • thecostofsuccess


        Editing a comment
        Grod sure as fuck likes to complain, lol

      • Grodmeister General
        Editing a comment
        instead of writing your posts like a 17th century shakespeaere novel costofsuccess you can just fucking be clear about what you are trying to say!

    • #49
      The main thing I learned about this post is that maybe we were wrong on no having moderation.... I hope the first change is to bring moderation back...... Here are my mods proposals:

      1.- Pob

      2.- Pua_Reality

      3.- Silvertree

      4.- Hey_lover

      5.- all the old mods.....

      6.- delenclos

      7.- cocporn...

      all the old mods if they are still around..... We could have vote and suggestions...

      Last edited by Skills360; 01-11-2019, 04:23 AM.


      • #50
        What is the state of the game going into 2019?

        Things Im noticing,
        - A lot of conversation seems to be dominated by Netflix tv shows and travelling

        - Harder to game because venues are either too busy to visit or people are choosing to stay inside

        - Apps seem to now more than ever depend on a paywall to get any dating.

        - Clubs are having a resurgence

        ​​​​​​- Young people are making less money are in more debt and are having difficulties having a social life if not bank rolled by somebody older.

        - Instagram seems to dominate followed by social circle followed by dating apps followed by cold approach game in near dead last.

        What is the things bringing lays? Cant say Im noticing I get bitched at by women alloooottt more this year the. when I use to go out. Vancouver game is pretty damn stale like super crusty bread.

        More now then previous years I enjoy going out with atleast two other friends then by myself solo. Im also sensing that women are getting more miserable unless under 20.
        Is this all in my head? You don't
        move like a normal girl - Normal girls
        don't look like that, not in their eyes
        or the way you orchestrate my butterflies

        Brett McGibbon

        Self improvement isnt anywhere near as powerful as making her tingle lol



        • #51
          Like I said in previous posts. I want to move forward. I don't want to waste time on what happened in the past. I would have done things differently, and because I was the voice/public face of a committee, I ended up enforcing a lot of decisions I strongly disagreed with, which may have given people a wrong impression of what my opinions were, and where I would have taken this place were I in charge back then. I'm sorry it went down the way it did, but I can't change what happened. I am here to change things, but it seems like everyone is stuck on bitching about the past. I understand, I have plenty I could bitch about too, but that accomplishes nothing.

          I really want to get a dialog going about how we vet people to get rated as PUAs or whatever title we use. I feel this is the core issue that needs to get fixed. I completely agree that game recognizes game; I am an expert on a number of things and can tell the difference between fellow experts and blowhards in short order. But there has to be some fair process beyond, we need to have a recognized PUA meet with him and go in the field together. I don't want to see potential great posters driven away because that is impossible. For example, Daigoro. He was an Administrator here for many years. Most did not realize that because he displayed a Member badge. It seemed that he was accepted as a credible source of information, based on the quality of his posts. I know he is for real because we are good friends and have exchanged many emails and I have seen pix of his women. Having someone sarge with him would be close to impossible because, he first lived in Seoul, and now lives the the Emirates.

          I hope people get my concerns. I want to develop some process that both allows current members who are experts at seduction to have a say in who gets certified, and yet is fair to outsiders who stumble onto this place. I was trying to sell the committee on accrediting known experts at the point where BD decided to stop all moderation, because there was so much chaos and turmoil. Again, that was not my choice and I argued strongly against it.

          As to Tony D's post. I think he is right, the world is knee deep in PUA know how. But a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I'm guessing that much of what is out there is more KJ dense than some of the worst posters here. I feel that our most likely successful niche would be offering advice to those who come seeking knowledge.

          If we are going to change back to a viable school of seduction, which is what masf was, things are going to have to change. I'm ready to make changes, but we have to move beyond bitching, and start seeking solutions.
          The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


          • Zardoz


            Editing a comment
            If you added a blog, and did a good SEO campaign, perhaps. And a big name or two with shoutouts on Youtube. Maybe do interviews on Youtube with Gurus, drive traffic back to the blog. But current Gurus from all spheres, not just OG coaches.

            Thing is, this place is a talent factory, but you're in steep competition. Time to make new friends outside of Hogwarts, cause enrollment is way down.

            We killed Voldemort a long time ago. Now even Muggles are teaching!

          • Silvertree


            Editing a comment

            This software is likely to be replaced. Until I know the status of that, I don't want to invest too much work into new features. I am more interested in working out solutions to what people are complaining about.

        • #52
          The forum is dying, and one of the reasons is how it's set up. If someone with 100+ posts posts a "magic pill" that really appeals to newbies, those newbies will thank him, giving him rep, regardless of whether the information is viable or not. This in turn will make other newbies think that this KJ is actually viable, and when they try his advice, and it doesn't work, they'll figure the whole thing is BS. It's a downward spiral and at this point in time, there's nothing you can do about it as most of the people who actually post viable stuff is fed up by KJs ruining their threads as well as by idiots who just aren't able to take the advice they are given.

          Seriously, with the amount of circlejerking in this forum and the KJing, I'm surprised it survived this long. I for one am going elsewhere and hope for something better. And I know I'm not the only one.

          It's very likely that I'm just being sarcastic.


          • #53
            This is probably my last post on this topic, since again the "iraq had weapons of mass Destruction analogy"

            If you are smart enough you will understand my analogy.....

            Lets say for years George w. bush and the neocons decicde to invade iraq thought they clearly had nothing to do with 9/11.......(go elsewhere create another forum/facebook group or _____ fill in the blank...

            Lets say a bunch of people say uhmmm, nah lets take some other measures instead lets have un go in, lets put sanctions, lets focus instead on the tallibhan....(sylvertree, zardoz, me and others)

            Now lets say some gullible poster/s lets say the pool player makes a post "why is the forum dying"

            Lets say a reporter that has no agenda (does not give a fuck lets call it skills, in this case Bob woodward) say hey guys all of you are doing is a bunch of bs this is what happened, this is what is happening...

            Nobody listens and still cont. oh we should do this, this what is wrong we should do that etc...(markA, glow, etc.....) How to fix and move forward instead of invading iraq (congress aka wasting time since the decision already has been made)

            then iraq happens despite all that wasted time....(the decision was made years ago)

            I hope you guys have a brain and understand what i just described, but is so insulting people making stories, exaggerating. talking about kj, talking about tech, talking about, the advice giving is shit! etc... Is insulting due to YOU GUYS know what is going on....

            so when someone like me reads all this shit, is kind of annoying...

            If the decision has been made to invade iraq just invade and shut the fuck up!


            • #54
              Originally posted by Silvertree View Post
              I understand the problem of KJs. I do not see a good way to make fair decisions as to who is and isn't a PUA or a KJ.
              If I may, sir:

              As I alluded to above, the only thing that matters is the subject at hand. Once we internalize this, we will realize that we're all KJs and we're all seducers (unless you're talking to a virgin or some such).

              For example, Teevster is a total KJ when it comes to internet dating. I'm a total KJ when it comes to club game, and so on. In order to identify a KJ you must ask, "how much experience do you have with the specific subject at hand?" The question shouldn't be "how many lays do you have overall?" or "how many women have you even cold approached?" when the subject of the thread has nothing to do with cold approaching.

              Many times when I was attacked for being a KJ, I thought the attack was a non sequitur. I had things hurled at me like, "NWP, have you ever even set foot in a bar?" Or, "You're no seducer! How many lays do you have? 30? Ok, how many of those women did you approach cold on the street?" Uhhhhh, but I'm not giving advice on how to cold approach women, or how to act in a bar. What do these ridiculous questions have to do with anything I'm actually saying in the thread?

              The reason you, and others, are having so much trouble defining the term KJ is because, unless you're dealing with a virgin (or perhaps someone who fucked only one woman in his life), the term KJ is always an invalid non sequitur, except as it specifically pertains to the specific subject matter that is being discussed in that specific thread!

              In other words, Teevster doesn't have to know about internet dating in order to talk about clubs. I don't have to have ever cold approached any woman in order to talk about polyamorous relationship management. I don't have to have 100 lays in order to talk about successful internet dating pickup. You see the problem. We're all clueless KJs on certain subjects and experts in others. So maybe, instead of calling someone a KJ because he only has 5 lays, how about listening to what he has to say on the subject that he claims to have experience in and decide for yourself whether it makes sense or not. Of course, others who claim to have superior experience on that same specific subject may chime in and accuse him of not knowing what he's talking about, which would make for a fun debate.

              So here's my solution: Make the term KJ a verb instead of a noun. Unless we're dealing with virgins, or the grossly inexperienced, everyone who has experience with a certain subject (like poly relationship management) should be taken seriously, even if he knows nothing about other irrelevant subjects (like club game or cold approach), and vice versa. Dump the objective definition and embrace a subjective "KJ in this case" definition, and things should clear up in terms of who's telling the truth vs. who is just a virgin in their parents' basement.



              • #55
                I would like for this be a PUA forum only because that is why this place is unique. We have posters here that founded pickup. We have posters like Ijjji, LIfeguard, PureEvil, Gunwitch and others come back from time to time and then leave. We should let the old MASF posters like Teevster, Razorjack, and others decide who should be giving advice to everyone. As game recognices game let them decide. And let them decide the moderators as well. We should encourage field reports from members as well.

                And then they sould be actively posting advice new or old. To bring posters back to seek advice.

                Who else here is in? We really can't afford to lose anymore posters.


                • #56
                  Originally posted by TheHustler View Post
                  I am would like for this be a PUA forum only because that is why this place is unique. We have posters here that founded pickup. We have posters like Ijjji, LIfeguard, PureEvil, Gunwitch and others come back from time to time and then leave. We should let the old MASF posters like Teevster, Razorjack, and others decide who should be giving advice to everyone. As game recognices game let them decide. And let them decide the moderators as well.

                  And then they sould be actively posting advice new and old. To bring posters back.

                  Who else here is in? We really can't afford to lose anymore posters
                  You are advocating for authoritarian fascism!

                  No one has any business deciding for me who I am allowed to listen to and who I must be deprived of hearing from. And no one has any business telling me which advice I'm allowed to take and which I'm not allowed to even hear.

                  I'll listen to whomever I choose and I will take or not take any advice that I see fit. You have no right to take away my, or anyone else's, individual autonomy in this matter. Especially since, in the early days, many posters helped me whom others told me not to listen to.

                  Guys like Teevster will just say that no one who doesn't cold approach or go to clubs has any business here, and that will be that. The goal of this forum should be a successful sex life (however one defines that for oneself), which includes relationship management and online game, social circle game, etc... Not a narrow definition of what constitutes a cold approaching or clubbing PUA.


                  • #57
                    Can we take a poll (post one of those poll things) and vote or something Silvertree?

                    And can we have more input on how people think we can bring more posters to nextasf (To vote on)if you have any?


                    • #58
                      Field Reports just tend to get so much conflicting advice/input that they become kinda pointless tbh. Maybe FR's need to be in sub categories based on whose methodology you are following lol


                      • #59
                        Originally posted by Subterfuge View Post
                        Field Reports just tend to get so much conflicting advice/input that they become kinda pointless tbh. Maybe FR's need to be in sub categories based on whose methodology you are following lol
                        Yes I am for dividing the forum into subdivisions by choice of game as well. And for instance if it was for example a screener forum it would moderated by screeners and only the best screeners would decidie what is keyjockey like the pua forum. In other words we will let the pua's moderate there subdivision and visa versa. So they can run as separate forums. And each subdivision would have there own field report section. We could do this for daygame and other forms of game.


                        • Grodmeister General
                          Editing a comment
                          some of the techniques bleed into other styyles of game per se....for example in a thread on here recently someone was pointing what they thought were dhv spikes ....naturally those were not spikes, we do different styles of games ..but dhv attract spikes are pretty set in stone(mystery method got that down) now if that guy is a screener what do we do here, also a lot cats swear they know what a proper indirect opener is or how to run it , they are doing it wrong and while they dont have to stick to the mystery method, you cant go against core principles , run indirect openers the wrong way and you compromise the whole idea of going indirect!

                      • #60
                        @The Hustler:
                        Can we take a poll (post one of those poll things) and vote or something Silvertree?

                        And can we have more input on how people think we can bring more posters to nextasf (To vote on)if you have any?
                        I am working on something like that.
                        The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae