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  • #16
    Originally posted by Present View Post
    NWP, thank you for that hilarious post.

    The concept of POS vs. TOTH guys is very interesting and useful to me. I think the most useful thing that you've offered me is an opportunity to look at it without a value judgment. My knee-jerk past thought would have been, "TOTH, how superficial immature and self-defeating etc etc definitely not the right guy for me."
    I've taken some heat on this forum in the past for unintentionally insulting some of the TOTH guys here. I think one time I even indirectly suggested they were masochists with purity complexes who worship the cult of virginity. No doubt, many TOTH guys are like that, but many are not. It's just that their psychologies are so different from mine that, in many ways, I can't comprehend them. Then again, maybe they feel the same way about me.

    A TOTH guy would probably prefer a religious virgin prude because she's more of a challenge, and would accuse me of being a pussy with no game if I only go for the "easy" ones. But I like my lifestyle and someone needs to de-virginize all those prudes and turn them into the women I like. Then when they're attraction for them goes away, I'll take the women off their hands. So POS and TOTH guys have a neat arrangement, I guess.

    After hearing it mentioned dispassionately, seeing it as a natural variant in human behavior rather than a character flaw, I can say, "TOTH guys, one of them might or might not be a good choice for me, and if one is a good choice, then I'm going to choose to provide him with his chase-and-persuade thrills in order to give us both more pleasure."
    Just be careful because you're entering slut shame city. Again, not all TOTH guys are slut shamers, and I'm not talking about anyone on this forum, but many (though not all) of these types of guys have conservative sexual views and think that women who have slept with too many guys too easily are "cheap." While it's true that not every TOTH guy thinks this, none of the POS guys think it. So if you're looking for a TOTH guy who wants a semi-virginal woman for a hard challenge because hard work is what gets him off, I suggest you screen for the types of TOTH guys whom you'll find on this forum - the ones least likely to be slut shaming rednecks.

    Where you say you don't want to be seduced with escalation and playfulness b/c you're not a woman: Ummmm, maybe some TOTH guys might enjoy the role reversal of being seduced and chased?
    I'll let the TOTH guys speak for themselves, but as I understand them, they are the ones who want to chase, not vice versa. POS guys like me, however, love being chased and fought over. In fact, I wouldn't have it any other way.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Present View Post
      But the guy who's 100% clueless by the time he's near my age. . . well, he may need intensive remediation from you guys, rather than higher-volume signalling from me. The guy who's 100% clueless by my age is likely to be such a turnoff for me, in terms of his social ineptitude, that I am not willing to pursue him. If he pursued me, there is a small but non-imaginary possibility of me responding well.
      Although the guys in this seduction community are far from clueless, most guys outside of it are - at least clueless by women's standards. But that's because they're not women.

      It has always annoyed me when women complain that men are idiots when it comes to non-verbal signals, the subtle intricacies of the mating dance, and how they need to be hit over the head with a brick just to get a clue. One woman even asked me how men could build bridges and cure diseases if they are this retarded when it comes to female signals.

      The answer is that all of those things, like building bridges, etc..., are premised on the concept of direct verbal communication. Lots of men get annoyed when women refuse to be verbal and direct and don't understand why there should even be a "mating dance" or "seduction phase." It is women who insist on seduction, non-verbal signals, and indirect games. That's why we had to build this community.

      But the reason I said I don't like being seduced indirectly and playfully is because most men don't understand the female need to make things more complicated than they need to be.

      A perfect world, from men's point of view, would be a world where no "seduction" as such is needed, but a guy would pursue women in the same way that he fixes cars. He'd walk up to you, introduce himself, directly state the facts, say he thinks you're hot, say he would like to talk to you for a while, and then say he'd like to have sex with you.

      But no. That would be way too honest and direct. Women need "the dance," which is littered with non-verbal signals and unnecessary complications. Thus, the seduction community was born in which men train to become proficient in this mating game. Their training is usually predicated on raising a man's masculinity via inner game to the level that will allow him to instinctively vibe with women and develop his psychic, non-verbal, and right brained intuitive skills to the point where he can play the game like a master.

      For this reason, there are many masters on this forum who would be able to read your signals, but you shouldn't be too harsh on the men outside this community who do not, even if they are your age. Because women have always had a heightened psychic ability to perceive body language and subtle non-verbal signals. This is an evolved adaptation which resulted from nurturing infants too young to talk. But when women like you lament that men do not have this same psychic ability, you are essentially complaining that men are not women.

      This is why I get angry when I hear some brilliant insight about body language and some snobbish woman says, "This is commonsense. How is this a big revelation?" Men have not evolved the same way, that's how.

      I, and the other men on this forum, had to work hard to develop the level of masculinity and intuitive right brained instincts to be able to successfully participate in the mating dance. But you need to understand that those men outside this community (even those your age) have not (at least by and large). It's not because they are deficient. It's because they are not women, and therefore, don't have a psychology for indirect non-verbal things as much.

      Comment


      • #18
        A lot of beta males consider themselves as TOTH guys when they are actually pussy on the pedestal guys hence the confusion with the slut shaming.

        The true TOTH guy likes the challenge by definition but its not a must have - it's just the spice on the steak.

        He is stereotypically the eternal bachelor so slut shaming is of no consequence to him.

        Comment


        • #19
          It's not because they are deficient. It's because they are not women, and therefore, don't have a psychology for indirect non-verbal things as much.
          The biggest problem I see in M/F relationships is men expecting women to think and behave like men, and women expecting men to think and behave like women.

          One of the smartest things anyone ever said anywhere, any time is...

          Vive la différence, or as Maurice said, "Zank Evan for lettle girlz, zye grow up in ze most delightfool vaaz."
          The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Present View Post
            Most men online express interest in monoLTR because that's what most women want to hear, or what they think most women want to hear.
            I've always wondered why the assumption. My nickname is "Insatiable" with a description like "Can't get enough. Let's keep it simple". It happened I put a picture, I had a lot of interest, but way too many gay dudes would message me and blow up the stuff and fuck up the signal to noise ratio. So I take the picture out.

            It's interesting though to see how much full of shit people are. It happened I log as a female on these websites, and you'd see people trying to appear as Pure Angels explicitly against "fucking around" jump on your offer like tigers. I find that pathetic.

            I say, "sorry, we're not compatible b/c I'm having a great time dating and don't have any interest in settling down." Then they backpedal. The WAY they backpedal gives me a TON of information about their strength, centeredness, frame, integrity, playfulness.

            You can push further: You tell someone you just want to have fun and get laid, he backpedals and says he's down for it, etc, etc.. And you ask him more (has he ever fucked somebody off online, etc).. And then you make fun of the "others" (like those lame people who're looking for a relationship) which, the person will blindly follow and fucking amplify.. And then you tell that person "I'm disappointed. I'm actually looking for a relationship and I just wanted to figure out what you really wanted".

            If that persons changes the story again... I don't like a 180°, let alone a 360°. Weathercocks aren't fun. It may indicate an eagerness to please, which you may or may not enjoy and accept.. It may also indicate no problem lying and deceiving (and let's be honest, a lack of balls to have the attitude: This is what I want. If you like it, come. If you don't, may you find what you're looking for).. That's slave/prisoner behavior who'd say/do anything to avoid punishment. The slave though has no choice for he's fucking enslaved and there's possible retaliation.

            Comment


            • #21
              Very eager to get some time to follow those BD and Tubarao links.

              I wouldn't be comfortable screwing with somebody's mind to see whether they'll do a 360.

              For my safety in rejecting liars, I feel that I can get enough info from subtler aspects of how they answer questions. I compose questions that are open-ended enough (I believe) not to telegraph the answer that would be "right" for hooking up with me. That's partly based on outcome-independence: it's okay with me no matter what you answer; I'm still interested in who you are (but, unbeknownst to you, you might be ruling yourself out for a hookup).

              My antennae seem to be in moderately working order. Last weekend I went on a date with someone who claimed to be a very respected surgeon, semi-retired and able to travel, beloved by all. He gave off almost all the right words and vibes with the exception of some subtle thing that rankled. Maybe it's that he kept emphasizing what a great listener he is but he was perfectly comfortable with me asking questions and him expounding. Also he paid for his aspect of our date with cash instead of credit card. . . therefore no paper trail anywhere. The next day I googled him. The name he gave me doesn't exist in this region as a surgeon. He has not followed up on our delightful date with a thank you (nor have I). Maybe he knows that I know he's delusional.

              When I talk about a man too clueless for me, I don't mean one who misses my seduction hints. There are a ton of engineers and slightly-Aspergery guys who don't fall below my standards. The one who does fall below my standards is one with such markedly, aberrantly low social intelligence and such high body tension that he really doesn't function well in any social situations at all, making me very physically tense. I am willing to do my part in the world-team to remediate this for everybody's benefit, but I don't repair guys in order to make them into my boyfriends. That would be setting up a sucky dynamic. That's why I am so very, very grateful that this community exists, to mentor nice men and turn them into great lovers.

              So far only one guy has tried to convert me. He was a charming manipulative narcissist control-freak who would have tried to dominate anybody's time no matter how much of it they gave him. I'm grateful to have dated him so that I could learn more about how to identify manipulations. I wasn't very good at that previously; still not tops. Another man tried dating me for a few months even tho' he felt monogamous. He couldn't tolerate the jealousy; he couldn't even tolerate discussing it and negotiating supports to make him feel safe, so he ended it and we are still friends. I think I hold my poly frame pretty strongly now, with that happy cheerful attitude, so it seems to be attracting the right sorts for the most part.

              One interesting thing about me being here is that, for a woman, my social intelligence is low (in my opinion), so I can benefit a ton from the information and principles you guys have developed. Obviously, having relatively lower social intelligence isn't a huge handicap, in the dating scene, for a woman. . . but things could get much smoother and more successful. And improving one's social intelligence is valuable for the rest of life outside dating, too.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Present View Post
                engineers and slightly-Aspergery guys
                bwahahahaahhahaha
                I have a bunch of friends that fall into this category

                Comment


                • #23
                  Clarification: I hold my poly frame easily in starting from online, which is where I am at my strength. Meeting for the first time out in the real world, I hit the jackpot less often--less relaxed and confident. Also, in the real world, I believe that I have to come at the poly information from a more oblique angle. I don't announce it in so many words all the time. While holding the attitude of fun, I am more careful to keep the full nature of my practice private until trust has been built, because a woman's social standing is at risk. On the other hand, I don't wait until a third date to drop a bomb either. I'm gonna have to go back and re-read what you guys have written about how you frame that to a new gal.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Present View Post
                    One interesting thing about me being here is that, for a woman, my social intelligence is low (in my opinion), so I can benefit a ton from the information and principles you guys have developed. Obviously, having relatively lower social intelligence isn't a huge handicap, in the dating scene, for a woman. . . but things could get much smoother and more successful. And improving one's social intelligence is valuable for the rest of life outside dating, too.
                    Don't doubt yourself too much (you too NWP) as women grossly OVERESTIMATE their social intelligence and think they know it all when it comes to seduction, dating, relationships etc due to their own ego Edit: and reading Cosmopolitan.

                    This is my observation when seeing the tables turned e.g. When a woman tries to pick up another woman in a straight nightclub she will make the SAME mistakes and a typical AFC dude - going in too hard, telegraphing interest, not screening for bi-curious first etc

                    They also make terrible wingmen despite their claims LOL

                    You are very right that it is a valuable skill to develop, not just for seduction but life in general.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Present View Post
                      Very eager to get some time to follow those BD and Tubarao links.
                      Read this one too, just for fun:

                      http://www.blackdragon-blog.com/2011...e-differences/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'd make her prove that she was serious, by making out with me on the spot, and then yes I would. I'm not a ToTH guy and I hugely appreciate women who skip the games and get to business.

                        She'd be a FB only, forever, and she'd probably insist on keeping me at the same distance if she's that type of girl.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          http://www.blackdragon-blog.com/2012...-types-of-men/ led me to his Types of Women post, which intrigued me. One question I wonder: in the experience of youse guys: can a person be Dominant or Independent in external life and submissive in the bedroom, or dominant in the bedroom and Submissive or Independent in external life? Or do you feel that a person's style is unitary?

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                          • #28
                            Tubarao's post here: http://www.pua-zone.com/showthread.p...%28and-LTRs%29 is so very, very, very beautiful. Of course I don't like the word "compliant" to describe a man or a woman. I do totally agree that we all need to teach people how we like to be treated. People deserve that opportunity, to learn and grow into treating us with respect and kindness. And I can see the PUA point that it might actually be more respectful to "teach" them nonverbally by soft-nexting rather than by giving them so much boring, Beta-like verbalization.

                            Question: I wonder if by MY following this paradigm, a man around me can graduate from Beta into Alpha? If I decrease my attention to him when he's acting all supplicative, and increase it when intermittent rays of confidence and happiness shine through?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Lots of questions revolving around the same topic. Here's my experience.
                              Originally posted by Present View Post
                              ...Question: I wonder if by MY following this paradigm, a man around me can graduate from Beta into Alpha? If I decrease my attention to him when he's acting all supplicative, and increase it when intermittent rays of confidence and happiness shine through?...
                              No, don't. If you withdraw attention he's likely to supplicate even further. Withdraw reward, not attention. Drive the interaction to a stale mate. Become even more submissive and indecisive than he is. He will realize he has to take the initiative. And stroke his ego till it becomes aroused. I'm aware this is a lot of boring work, not every man will be worth it.

                              Originally posted by Present View Post
                              ... One question I wonder: in the experience of youse guys: can a person be Dominant or Independent in external life and submissive in the bedroom, or dominant in the bedroom and Submissive or Independent in external life? Or do you feel that a person's style is unitary?
                              Absolutely! My GF is really independent in professional and personal life. She's been that way all her life. She's also really submissive in the bedroom (I assume by "bedroom" you mean the whole male/ female relationship.) This dichotomy is what I love most about her.
                              Also, I dated a woman that looked like this at work:
                              http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordp...minatrix_1.jpg
                              (No, really, she did work as a dominatrix!)
                              And her posture was like this when she was out with me:
                              http://cdn.self-titledmag.com/wp-con...ossellini1.jpg
                              I loved her to bits. I always will. She is a master seducer and a good friend still.
                              Originally posted by Present View Post
                              Curious about something ?Say a lady is DTF and maybe an HB8 or so. If she invites you, without any fun flirtation and heat-building, does that work for you? ...
                              Not really.
                              By DTF do you mean down to fuck? (Most women are. Who isn't?) Or dying/ desperate to fuck? The pigsty example points to the latter. If she just wants a live dildo there are plenty men who will be willing to oblige. My most disappointing sexual experience was with a gorgeous, intelligent woman (a "10" in every way) who was bragging in a bar that she hasn't had a good fuck in soooo long... Meh.

                              Other thoughts:
                              Originally posted by Present View Post
                              ... After hearing it mentioned dispassionately...
                              That will be the day!!! when NWP can be accused of saying anything dispassionately.
                              Or when he'll be objective about the TotH guys. See:
                              Originally posted by NWP View Post
                              ...The TOTH (thrill of the hunt) guys are my opposites and may prefer the "pure" prissy ones who pose a challenge...
                              Ask a TotH what and why they hunt.
                              I hunt. Not for sex since that comes easy. I hunt for THAT experience. I love to seduce and to be seduced. I lead the interaction but I am seduced by her live, emotional response. In tango/ salsa/ swing, etc. the man leads but it' the woman that shines. She listens, follows and also does all the fancy moves. They both seduce. Pure/ prissy/ virginal girls tend to be star-fish in the bedroom. The POS can have them all. Also, virginal/ inexperienced women tend to be emotional star-fish. Meh.
                              Everyone loves eating. It's a physiological need. For some a fast food joint will do the trick, others chose a fancy restaurant. That's the equivalent of POS. TotH people are into cooking, possibly growing or hunting, for that special meal. Yes' it's more "work" if you look at it that way. And for some the preparation gets to be more pleasurable than the food in mouth experience.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Present View Post
                                Say a lady is DTF and maybe an HB8 or so. If she invites you, without any fun flirtation and heat-building, does that work for you?
                                depends if I'm already attracted to her

                                and since there was no seduction "dance", that means one thing - I already need to find her visually appealing plus she needs to show enough feminine/playful behaviour

                                if I don't find her attractive and/or if I don't like her vibe, then the fact that she makes a direct invitation and puts the cards on the table won't change shit. The seduction "dance" gives me more opportunities to get attracted to something about the chick (usually her vibe, since the presence/absence of visual appeal is obvious within seconds)

                                -M

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