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  • Marriage Pressure

    Hi there,

    Been a LONG time reader of MASF and came across this site. Has helped me in some many ways so first wanted to say thanks! Second, and I know it is pretty frowned upon here, but have been in a monogamous relationship for the past 3 years and have been pretty happy in it. My gf is 30 (I am 33) and has been putting the screws on me to get hitched and lately it has been getting quite strong. Here's the good & bad of it:

    Good-
    Great sex, never used as a weapon, very open and varied
    Pays, she pays the rent in NYC! And let me tell ya, it ain't cheap!
    Considerate - bakes, cooks, cleans, buys me gifts, does all that

    Bad-
    Most of the time very good but can get up caught up in random emotional outbursts. It starts with a snarky email. Then it builds and builds. Uses a lot of circular arguments against me. She won't let me ignore her, can't laugh it up, it builds until I yell and scream and then we have peace. I know this is just usual female testing mostly but it's a pain in the ass because she just won't let things go and I feel I've tried everything. It doesn't happen a lot but I feel it's often enough where I have a problem with it. Here's and example:

    "Why are you ignoring me? Can't you see I'm upset? Why would you let me be upset?"

    "Why don't you care. I love you so much and you don't care" (yeah, explaining to her doesn't work)

    So it's possible everything is great but I can't seem to pass her shit tests. Any suggestions with that? And to the bigger question, she is pressuring me for marriage. I'm not a big opponent of marriage per say, I have read all the pitfall stuff and I don't expect Disney happy ending but i think we make a good partnership. I am sexually satisfied, although I look at other girls I don't really have any huge urge to be with anyone else. She has a great career and high paying job and has no problems taking care of me. She gets along with my family GREAT and especially my handicap sister!! That's a very big deal to me. I never thought I would get married and the idea still bothers me but if I were, she would be the one. But these arguments drive me nuts. Another example of what I got today:

    "I am 100% sure I want to marry you but you don't seem ready and have doubts and I'd like to know why"
    "I can't force you to love me. Please just tell me where your head is at."

    Thanks!

  • #2
    I am in no way qualified to give any advice about this but

    "Why would you let me be upset"

    Uh, because you're fucking responsible for your own emotions. Next.

    I guess if you're willing to sacrifice your own state of being for her caring about your sister and paying for your stuff then I guess it's worth it. But you cannot avoid independence, it's going to come and bite you in the ass some day. Once the obligations and liabilities are set in (marriage) then things will become harder, but because she's the provider then it's less of a burden on your part. She has more to lose financially.

    So the transaction comes down to:

    You selling your mental well being for money, and her being nice to your handicap sister (which should be a given really, unless you mean as in she caretakes your sister). As for sex, I hear that goes down once you get married and is used as leverage.

    I personally would rather be independent, and living a peaceful quiet life than with an adult-child who thinks they are not responsible for their own behaviour and emotions.

    Comment


    • #3
      What is your ultimate goal? You dont state that very clearly. And which country and culture are you a subject to?

      Originally posted by no_mas View Post
      So it's possible everything is great but I can't seem to pass her shit tests. Any suggestions with that? And to the bigger question, she is pressuring me for marriage. I'm not a big opponent of marriage per say, I have read all the pitfall stuff and I don't expect Disney happy ending but i think we make a good partnership. I am sexually satisfied, although I look at other girls I don't really have any huge urge to be with anyone else. She has a great career and high paying job and has no problems taking care of me. She gets along with my family GREAT and especially my handicap sister!! That's a very big deal to me. I never thought I would get married and the idea still bothers me but if I were, she would be the one. But these arguments drive me nuts. Another example of what I got today:
      This is a huge red flag. Divorce risk increases the more the wife earns relative to the husband. I have attached a couple of Euro studies that shows that even in countries where Feminism is the state religion, women are more prone to divorce the men who they have achieved income equality with.

      http://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/.../matthijs1.pdf
      http://www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/work...25_paper07.pdf

      I personally would never have such a woman as my girlfriend (marriage is out of the question anyways for me) as the more career, income and education a woman has, GENERALLY, the worse her character will be IME. You also experience this in the form of drama, and how to deal with that could be a separate thread.

      BTW I find it particularly weak to let a woman at age 30 give you any shit at all. Her sexual market value has peaked, yours is probably still increasing. That is probably why she is blackmailing you for marriage, which would most likely shift the power balance in her favour. Such behaviour is very typical the "strong independent women" - delusional ungratefulness, coupled with a slightly betaized man.

      Comment


      • #4
        I should clarify, I was unemployed for a spell and she started paying all the bills. I have a no salary but commission job and make OK money now but she does very well. As for my sister, she wouldn't be caring for her, she is with my parents and pretty well looked after. It's awkward though at times, at least in my mind, and I think I would need a women who is comfortable enough around her.

        She is just dogged persistent when she gets in these moods. It's not end of the world but it's quite a drag. She won't stop texting, keeps asking me to call, and its the same run around i feel.

        I guess a better question is, what does a good marriage look like? Where is the line between natural arguments and plain bullshit? Does anyone have a happy marriage with no fighting?

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm in the US. NYC to be exact. While she makes more now, I hope that changes in the near future!

          Comment


          • #6
            Excellent response by Sparxx.

            Why would you settle for fighting though, even if it was the definition of a normal marriage?

            Do you not care about your life, is that the price you're willing to pay for sex (which will eventually disappear)?

            Look, I don't think anyone can answer this question for you. I think some people want to be slaves, some people want to throw their hands up into the air and commit a slow suicide, knowing full well where things are headed. I think you already know your answer, I think you don't even want to do this (which is why you made this thread), and that little self-trust you have left in you is slowly being squeezed out by manipulation.

            If you do get married and then later decide you made a mistake, it's going to be one huge fucking headache. An ounce in prevention is worth a pound of cure. You could dodge a bullet right now.

            Do you own any assets? Do you have any liabilities? Hey, you could get married and walk away in a divorce unscratched as long as theirs no kids involved, since you claim that she's the breadwinner. One thing leads to another though, I don't think marriage is the final destination.

            Comment


            • #7
              I believe marrying her is a bad idea for two reasons:

              1) Marriage in the Western countries is a slave contract for men. Court decisions usually favour the woman when disputes occur.
              2) There seems to be an implicit assumption that marrying her will REDUCE her bad behaviour, while in reality, she will have even less incentives to behave when having tied you down in that marriage.

              PS: I am not married and have never been so nor do I know US law that well, but what I have written above should be more or less the general Manosphere view.

              Comment


              • #8
                I believe you will only take advice which agrees with the decision you've already made.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The good parts you describe are good because you aren't married. They're how women are in a relationship that isn't marriage.

                  I can abso-fucking-lutely guarantee you that marriage will not only make NOTHING better (for you), but will in fact make things worse. What little restraint there is on her behavior because you can walk out the door at any moment will be gone, in her mind. And then, buster, WATCH OUT.

                  As for her "not letting you ignore her". Bullshit. All that means is that she picks away at you until she gets a rise out of you.

                  Look, the ONLY WEAPON that works against a woman's hysterics, bitchiness, bad attitude is this: Being non-reactive. Arguments, fights, all that shit ONLY benefits her. It's what she WANTS. She wants you to fight with her so that, deep down, she is reassured that you care enough to at least have a fight. Take that away from her, and she goes "Oh shit, I may have really fucked up this time. Maybe I better pull my horns in." So that means when she starts bitching out, you ignore her. Don't talk to her, don't acknowledge her (but be polite), and make yourself scarce (so that she's wondering where the fuck you are...and who you might be with). You need to develop the ability to *be a mental bachelor for months at a time*. Don't fuck her- watch porn right there in bed next to her and rub one out. The lesson she needs to learn is that you are fine without her pussy, without her presence, without her in your life in any way.

                  You're doing what most guys in monogamous relationships do: you're going with the flow and basically enjoying life and steady pussy. Wrong. You need to learn to manage your bitch! LOL...I know that sounds fucked up, but it's like doing routine maintenance on a car. You gotta do it. ESPECIALLY if you're monogamous. So, every now and then you start talking about some chick you know or (even better) work with ("So and so at work cracked me up the other day....blah blah...she used to be a model") even if you're completely making it up. Most guys try to reassure their mono-LTR that they *aren't* thinking of other women. WRONG. Every time she bitches out at you, it's a sign that she thinks you are invested in her and she can get away with it. It's not that she can't "control herself"...women ONLY bitch out at men who they think won't walk. ALWAYS make sure she thinks you will walk.

                  Of course, the flip side is that, eventually, she will walk. Cognitive dissonance will be too much for her and she will need a guy who will invest in her so she can squeeze out a baby. That's when you wish her the best of luck, and use your PUA skills to get a better girlfriend.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Alimony laws work both ways in NY, believe it or not. If this financial arrangent continues, and you wind up getting divorced, you'll make out like a bandit. I've seen it happen. Just sayin'...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you stay, the only way to end the BS is to stop reacting, like JSJ said, and be willing to let her stay mad until she gets sick of it. I used to get trapped in the cycle of the wife getting upset over nothing, then radiating bad vibes and trying to start a fight until she succeeded and then ending up apologizing for the problem she started to end the bad vibes. Not reacting and being willing to endure the bad vibes for as long as it takes is the only cure.

                      And I was one of those guys who always got laid in my relationship and it seemed to work for 20 years, we finally got married and bought a house because we wanted a child. Once we had all she wanted, marriage, house, and child, I was truly locked in because I was 100% committed to my kid having a healthy family life, my wife stopped doing sex, she had moved beyond that, she'd all grown up now and doesn't need it, and she became impossible to get along with. After 13 years of that BS I found this place and turned it around in a few years. Still not getting sex but at least it is peaceful. My commitment is to my kid. I love her and will do anything to see that she gets her shot to be a scientist.

                      I suggest you find another woman. As someone said, difficult women remain difficult. Change things to where you live a simple life you can support on what you make, and build a harem of women who love you and only require your affection and sex in return for the same.
                      The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Happy New Year to all of you guys!

                        No_mas, listen to me..
                        I am going now to have you see clearly what's going on.
                        It is purely a hormonal driven power game. What happens depends pretty much on how you are able to “manage your bitch” as Jim just told you.

                        What happens is that you reached the stage in the relationship with her that I call Female Game Stage II (I changed the name, so far it has been Betaising Stage II then I realized that the name is not good enough because it implies that everyone gets betaised which is on true, many gets betaised but no all.)
                        You can congratulate yourself: many guys never get past the stage I (the stage where they need to pass her tests)

                        You already passed the majority of her tests otherwise she would not bother so much doing what she is doing now.

                        For your personal safety it is of the outmost importance that you understand what she is doing now.

                        We can call this also the stage II the stage of the "open up to me more Honey"

                        Some more general into in this posts about what happens before.

                        http://www.francoseduction.com/betaising-alpha-male-2/

                        The stage II is when the female of our species BINDS the mind of the male by the means of an almost schizophrenic double bind having inside the message "please communicate with me more" or "you should open up to me more" and stuff like this.


                        It is important that you understand that there is absolutely no good answer you can give to her because.. at this stage the purpose of the female (yes, it is hormonal driven) is to have you engaged more and more into herself by the means of the double bind so that you are forced to ask yourself all the time "am I doing something wrong".. or "how could I improve the situation" which is what you are exactly doing.'

                        At this point men are divided into 4 groups:

                        - Pimps: (this good be a great option for you in the situation where you are now!) What they do? They revert the game of the woman and put her to work for them and at a certain point the table are turned so that he is asking her questions like: “I feel that something is not working in this relationship” and puts her to pay.

                        - Very strong men, with natural leadership qualities: they understand very quickly that democracy is really NOT the way of dealing with this situation and they revert her game by simply establishing a “not so democratic“ relationship with her that does not really take into account the bullshit connected with “You should open up to me more” and simply establish a male supremacy over the woman. She becomes at this point their “second officer”. Normally the second officer asks questions. The first officer (you) tells where to go next. These men also put a price to themselves. This is an option ONLY if she is a HSE (high self-esteem woman).

                        If this girl has a slightly LSE problematic (low self-esteem) forget this option. You can with a LSE woman only establish a a very tough dictatorship or next her.

                        - Mid-alpha males: these ones are stronger than the beta males but when confronted with this process they are not “strong enough” to stay calm. They begin to react to her betaising game by abusing her. This create a double sense circle where they both end up abusing each other.. and it ends badly, very badly. It can bring till murder or suicide.

                        - Beta males: they simply are SUCKED IN into her double bind so that they simply become a caricature of what a man is meant to be: these are the men who end up asking questions at home like “Honey where are my socks” or “Honey here is my monthly pay, can you give me 30 dollars for this week’s beer”

                        Ii is up to you where you want to go: the guys in the game, especially the relationship game can tell you how to avoid becoming her door mat and getting to the position you want to be with her but remember one thing.. if she has the slightest LSE problem then you better next her.

                        Now I tell you how this applies to this situation of yours and what you can do.. also some translations from her womanese.


                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        Hi there, Been a LONG time reader of MASF and came across this site. Has helped me in some many ways so first wanted to say thanks! Second, and I know it is pretty frowned upon here, but have been in a monogamous relationship for the past 3 years and have been pretty happy in it. My gf is 30 (I am 33) and has been putting the screws on me to get hitched and lately it has been getting quite strong. Here's the good & bad of it:
                        It would help us if you would tell how the monogamy was established anyway...

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        Good-
                        Great sex,
                        And this is where many guys get fucked: you should consider the sex as a reward, a gift you give to her for her being good to you..

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        never used as a weapon, very open and varied
                        Pays, she pays the rent in NYC! And let me tell ya, it ain't cheap!
                        Considerate - bakes, cooks, cleans, buys me gifts, does all that
                        There has been for sure a period in the relationship where she felt that you have done all what a man needs to do to have her feel herself a woman.. now that you did that she is now out to (write this on the mirror you shave yourself in the morning) to HUNT YOUR BALLS AND MAKE THEM HER OWN AND STOP YOU FROM GIVING THE BALLS TO ANYONE ELSE THAN HER.
                        And the means she will use will be wild and non legal believe me..Not because she would be a bad woman (we wait for you telling us about her self-esteem before we say this) but because the wild hormone drive woman in her is hard-wired to hunt you the way she is doing..in a word: your next woman will do the same. It is natural programming.
                        Let’s go on:

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        Bad-
                        Most of the time very good but can get up caught up in random emotional outbursts. It starts with a snarky email. Then it builds and builds. Uses a lot of circular arguments against me. She won't let me ignore her, can't laugh it up, it builds until I yell and scream and then we have peace. I know this is just usual female testing mostly but it's a pain in the ass because she just won't let things go and I feel I've tried everything. It doesn't happen a lot but I feel it's often enough where I have a problem with it.
                        This tells me that you actually passed well the Female Game Stage I (older term Betaising Game stage I, the stage of the tests for alpha) See she does this because she is so HORNY for you that the hormones in her body go up and down like your eyes would if you would be hit by a baseball stick on your head.. now her problem is this:

                        “This guy makes me so fucking horny, if I am not going to get some power on him he will leave me and I will have to give him my pussy for free”
                        The socially adjusted woman in her is worried and the primitive wild woman in her is horny and they both think how to cooperate to OWN YOUR BALLS exclusively.

                        Now the problem with this is that her pussy will dry up faster than you can sneeze your nose if you let her believe that she can own your balls..
                        And this is where the game of the woman begins to work AGAINST A WOMAN’ S SEXUALITY in fact.. believe me.. the guys that will fall for this game of hers are so many that the chances she will succeed are limitless.. and she is scared: she is scared of HER OWN SEXUAL POWER.

                        So what you need to do to HELP HER: you need to TAKE AWAY HER SEXUAL POWER FROM HER and depending on what you want either PIMP HER or establish a STRONG LEADERSHIP over the relationship.. this leadership CANNOT BE democratic in fact if you react by democracy to DOUBLE BINDS what happens is that the people you try to RULE ON will come on you and cut your balls sooner or later..

                        Zar Alexander had a good statement for this: “The people have the leaders they deserve”

                        Some translation from womanese:

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        Here's and example: "Why are you ignoring me? Can't you see I'm upset? Why would you let me be upset?"
                        Translation: you make me horny but I feel that I do not have enough power over your balls and now bastard you either submit to me or I will show you what a revolution is!

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        "Why don't you care. I love you so much and you don't care" (yeah, explaining to her doesn't work)
                        DON’T even try to “explain” a shit! Translation from womanese: “I love you so much that I feel I CANNOT CONTROL MYSELF ENOUGH TO KEEP MY HEAD COOL ENOUGH TO GET POWER OVER YOU.. so please you BASTARD make you now ENOUGH MISTAKES SO THAT MY ATTRACTION GOES DOWN ENOUGH FOR ME BEING ABLE TO HUNT YOU BETTER and again..TAKE POWER OVER YOUR BALLS”

                        As you see.. she is not THAT SURE of being in an exclusive relationship with you.. women never are: their attempts to get power over you never end.

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        So it's possible everything is great but I can't seem to pass her shit tests. Any suggestions with that? And to the bigger question, she is pressuring me for marriage. I'm not a big opponent of marriage per say, I have read all the pitfall stuff and I don't expect Disney happy ending but i think we make a good partnership. I am sexually satisfied, although I look at other girls I don't really have any huge urge to be with anyone else. She has a great career and high paying job and has no problems taking care of me. She gets along with my family GREAT and especially my handicap sister!! That's a very big deal to me. I never thought I would get married and the idea still bothers me but if I were, she would be the one. But these arguments drive me nuts. Another example of what I got today:
                        They are not tests.. on the sexual level you already passed them long ago.. she is UBER HORNY for you and now cannot explain to herself why she has this strange desire of EITHER CUTTING YOUR BALLS or in converse LET YOUR BALLS DICTATE HER DESTINY FOR THE YEARS TO COME...
                        And believe me: democracy IS NOT the way you will be able to use to be the one to dictate..

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        "I am 100% sure I want to marry you but you don't seem ready and have doubts and I'd like to know why"
                        Translation from womanese: I am the Professor at the Marriage University and I am going to tell you mother fucker Student what courses you need to go through and what exams you need to pass to get marriage access to my pussy.

                        Originally posted by no_mas View Post
                        "I can't force you to love me. Please just tell me where your head is at."
                        Thanks!
                        Translation: I am huge horny for you, please tell me what is THE GOVERNMENT in this relationship before I come for your balls because mother fucker you either establish the Government (without asking me too many questions) OR I WILL..

                        I hope you get where you are now..

                        Feel free to ask more.

                        Franco

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/...test-marriage/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hmmmm..something learned from my past marriage.
                            I met a uber hot and uber desirable chick. She was the master at manipulation, whether for a guy or not. Her priority in life was to maintain her perceived social status, and navigated politics and relationships masterfully to maintain that position. I on the other hand, don't care about how I appear to others, and have status through actual good-will generated. Only a small portion of my influence on others come from my education, looks, or background. I help people, people trust me, and I don't let close associates down. If we had to be politicians, I was more like a General McArthur, and she was more like Hitler.

                            Of course, early in the relationship I caught some flak as well. My way of dealing with this was 'to be a rock.' No matter what shit she threw at me, I did not budge. She followed me everywhere, before and after marriage. For this reason, I shielded myself from being manipulated (mostly). It was great, because I automatically became that guy she didn't want to 'be like that with.'

                            Towards the end I had a tough spell in my life where a family member of mine was diagnosed with mid-stage cancer, and I was seemingly lacking a career (making transition from attorney career track to entrepreneur). Kind of a growing up year for me. At that point she was supporting the marriage, financially speaking. We were poor for a bit. While I was willing to make sacrifices now for a better future, she was not. Differences between a middle class american chick and an immigrant who grew up poor and watched his father grow his rise in society I guess. The main problem was, because I was no longer supporting us, I started to cater to her demands. Balls cut off.

                            There are million reasons I can name why the marriage didn't work, but in the end it was because I ceased to be that rock. Other things looked better to her and off she went. Of course this has nothing to do with her actual stated reasons.

                            On a side note, being a man of my word, with loyalty and duty being important to me above all else, I would have stayed married even though I was miserable as a husband. Now I have my independence back and I'm loving every moment of it. My personal stance on marriage is that children is the only reason to ever be married, and modern western society is really not the environment to support a marriage. It'll be a battle every step until either the marriage ends from dissolution or until the end of your lives.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ...another powerful argument in favor of Type IIIs.

                              They tend to make one obligatory push for power, but once you put them in their place firmly, they don't really keep doing it. At worst it's an occasional whack-a-mole, where she tests you, you swiftly remind her of her place in your relationship, then she thanks you for the reminder and goes right back to loving you.

                              It is worlds away from the kind of bullshit most guys are dealing with. Plus there's no jealousy issues, they tend to be more "spiritual" and have better emotional control (not always, but it's a definite pattern), and they tend not to care if you're banging other chicks.

                              I fail to see the downside.

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