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Are routines still relevant to Pick Up 2015?

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  • Are routines still relevant to Pick Up 2015?

    Becoming more and more eager to get results and overcome certain stuck points I'm considering using routine based game. Not entirely routine based of course but I'm thinking of adding a few routines to my arsenal of 'game'. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried routines and could give me advice, any objections, any pointers, etc, etc. I am also open to suggestions as to why routine game could be a 'bad choice' or why it could be a 'good choice'? I've tried for years to do things without routines, games, patterns, demonstrations and to be fair I usually get quite a good interaction some of the time, but I'm looking for a sure fire way to peak attraction during interacting. What are your thoughts? (Sure others can learn from this and the reason I'm asking a question probably answered before is because I want to know, mainly if routines are still relevant to pick up)

  • #2
    I tried the routines/gimmicks/etc thing. It never got me results any more than I was getting at the time. In fact I would wager that the lays I did get during that time were ones that just happened, without the gimmicks or routines.

    In my opinion, if you want a sure fire way to peak attraction during interactions use any direct DTF game. 60, GW,GATA, etc.

    Comment


    • #3
      Routines were horribly misunderstood.
      They do what they always have done, which is to provide certain things that in themself dont contribute directly towards getting laid.
      A bit like how petrol is helpful for getting from A to B. (Which kinda explains why excessive use is bad, and ended up giving them bad a rep.)

      (I'd say SS stuff is the exception to the rule. It can, at least in theory, help directly towards getting laid.)

      Comment


      • #4
        using scripts i think helps some newb guys that dont understand how game works get the ball rolling..
        it's not really necessary though - nor does it give any unfair advantage as far as I'm concerned.

        that's for me tho

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        • #5
          Routines come in many shapes and forms. An opener is just an ice breaker for people with little imagination, or for people with low self esteem. For some, that is enough. Though it has to be mentioned that a mere "hi" often serves as enough of an ice breaker, and that so-called situationals almost always works better. Ice breakers will of course do just that; break ice. It will get you in touch with more women, but it won't automatically get you laid with them. I think this frustrates a lot of men, but it is a learning process.

          Personally I like to fokus on a few things, like having fun and building social value when I go out, so women will try to seduce me. It's not the only way to the goal, though, and the way you find most comfortable is a matter of personal taste. Just sayin'. If and when I hit it off with a woman, and she's happily chatting with me, I make use of a highly customizable invitation routine. It's sort of a closing routing, as opposed to an opening routine. It goes something like this: "I'm going to place X later tonight. I'd be delighted if you'd join me." Or I'd simply start talking about going somewhere - even talking about going home to chill with a movie and some wine - and ask if she wants to join me.

          The other implementation of this routine is the date invitation, which goes something like this: "I'm doing X on day Y. I'd be delighted if you'd come." Some of the clues behind these kinds of routines is that any kind of nagging or needyness is not allowed. If she ignores them or say no, never talk to her again. Instead just go meet new women. Well, that's the short version of the theory, anyway. There's a lot more to it. In a community where a lot of theory revolves around compelling and persuading the woman to have sex with you, that's actually kind of a radical approach, the most prolific proponent and guru for it being Brent Smith.

          I don't subscribe to all of Brent's ideas, though, and will quite happily escalate to sex myself when the woman responds well to my touch and stuff like holding her hand - stuff you'll see guys like 60 Years of Challenge (or simply sixty) write excellently about. Even further, I really like routines that help in teasing and having fun with the girl, such as routines making heavy use of push and pull, both verbally and not least physically - but I'd like to stress that those are for having FUN and not achieving a goal in itself (even though escalating hard, and then shying off and saying "we shouldn't do this" can be quite powerful).

          Hope this will give you some nice ideas to work with!

          Comment


          • #6
            [*] This post relates to OUTER GAME.

            I'm going to try to answer your question by sidestepping it a little, but I hope it can still be somewhat helpful.

            When you use the word "routine", most people think about "something you say that is known to elicit a predictable response". This way, you can string along a bunch of routines that have relatively predictable responses and create what is commonly referred to a "routine stack".

            One routine gives you a response that allows you to get experience with the outcomes, work on handling contingencies and you know where to branch next.

            Obviously, routines don't need to be "something you say", but typically in the context of online forums, routines are reduced to what people say because it's simpler to communicate in a written form. Of course a routine can be fully non-verbal, but it's not common to refer to it as a "routine" in pickup terms. Keep this in mind, when people say "I just usually do this" (be it spin a girl on the dance floor, hover before they open, keep strong eye contact, open over shoulder, etc) it is a routine.

            And this is kind of where I'm going with this input. When you wake up in the morning, you probably have a morning routine. The same way you probably have a routine when you get ready for going out on the town to pick up women, to what you say to "open" her.

            So, what is the point of a routine if everyone has one? Nobody can call upon unlimited entropy, and in a sense you are forced to do the same things over and over again because nobody is transparent to themselves; it is hard to spot the mistakes one makes. It is hard to understand that one is even making a mistake, and mis-attribute lacking success to looks, social standing, race, age, or just whatever.

            From this perspective, routines are excellent for a number of things:

            First, look at what your current routines ARE. If you routinely go out on the town to pick up women but end up alone, break down what your current routine is. What is it that you actually do? What is it that you would ideally be doing? Sometimes the reason why you're not succeeding will stare you straight in the face just because you have the balls to ask the question. Embrace the answer and adjust your routines accordingly. This uses a definition of "routine" that isn't directly compatible with the one implied by the pickup community, but it's important.

            Second, look at routines that exist in the community. As ijjjji correctly implied, most verbal routines won't actually get you laid directly. But what they will do is give you two priceless things: Experience and entropy.

            Because well designed routines are actually pretty predictable, you will actually get experience in a given social situation. This experience will give you a broader range; understanding the dynamics of a single routine might blow open your understanding of a whole field of social interactions. This might get you laid in abundance. It might never be possible to attribute the fact that you "score" to the single routine, but rather, it might have indirectly changed you by giving you new perspectives and understandings of the specter of reaction patterns people exhibit given your input. You start with a specialized action, but you gain general knowledge. This is the experience part.

            Then, because we are all limited in our inventiveness and understanding of social interactions, routines are a good place to start. They are, in a sense, self contained software packages for your mind that are relatively easy to install and execute. They don't need to be GOOD as long as they give you a new perspective, because this entropy will lead to more situations where you get experience. If you consider going out with routines sort of like exercising martial arts with a kata system, you'll even appreciate opening with a bad routine because you strengthen your abilities to handle contingencies.

            More entropy leads to more experience which leads you to be better at handling contingencies.

            And, when you look at it, what is it that (when it comes to outer game) separates the abysmal from the masterful? Their ability to handle contingencies. Interactions can never be fully planned out. If they could, the book "The Perfect Stack" would be the only book anyone would ever have to read.

            So, as a summary; Look at your established routines and debug them. Use existing routines in the community to introduce entropy if your life is currently lacking it, because entropy leads to experience. And, in terms of outer game, experience is really the only thing that is ever going to get you laid.

            I am NOT saying you cannot get laid without experience. It is not hard to get laid without any kind of game, but this post is tailored to answer the OP. When you are in a situation where things are not going exactly as expected, you want to get one out of two things: Either reach your goal or get the experience that makes it more likely that you reach your goal in the next iteration. Because your current routines might stop you from getting more useful input, it is important that these are analysed to the degree that you are either in a successful environment or a learning environment.

            Most people who get "stuck" in this community are not in either of these environments.

            Community dogma actually touches on this: Go out and journal, because this allows you to reflect on your actions. It also tries to comfort you with it: No, you didn't get laid, but you got a new experience.

            The problem with this oversimplified (or rather, incomplete) approach is that nowhere is it taught how to make sure you are actually in a learning environment. I hope this post might have some pointers on how to implement this.

            Addition: I am not advocating for or against using community routines. I am suggestion that you use them as a learning tool if you adopt them at all. Once a routine stops giving you either success or new learning experiences it is time to get rid of it. Even if you think a routine is giving you success (let's say it consistently opens for you) but you fail to get laid (or whatever you associate with the word success), get rid of it. Learning how an interaction compounds is something you can only learn by adjusting the early stages of an interaction.

            Comment


            • #7
              I can add to what COCPORN said that the absolutely most useless community people I have met are people who have refused to use any kind of canned material and tried to go "full natural", "not chase" or "be laidback" before gaining enough social intuition and having a functioning game from open to close.

              Naturals who enter the community can often do this as they already have "common sense" with regard to socialization and seduction, and may only need to change a few variables to slay even more pussy.

              Even if your canned material or routine is total nonsense, if it gives you any new reference experiences at all, some learning will occur.

              I'd say that the level of game around 2008 and also the level of innovation was MUCH higher before all kinds of "natural game" and "no-chasing" ideas were widespread (both because people actually went out and tried new stuff, no matter how retarded).

              These styles are not bad FOR ADVANCED GUYS with enough experience, but they are horrible as a starting point for the noob because they often too passive and will not increase your "common sense" with regards to game.

              There is also a perverse dynamic going on that many of the advanced guys will at some point realize that the structured routine-based game is superfluous and speak out loud against it, not realizing that it brought them to the level where they could let it go as they dont need it that much anymore. This is then accepted as true for everybody.

              Comment


              • #8
                I mean, I think the Jealous Girlfriend Opener and the Best Friends Test are a bit over-exposed, if that's the sort of thing you mean...

                ... but we all have our little routines. I'm sure there's a funny or impressive story that you like to tell, that you've told more than once. That's a routine. "Routine" doesn't have to mean made-up, scripted line.

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                • #9
                  Its funny how the tone of this thread seems to be swinging back to "routines are not that bad" lol...

                  Specific micro-routines/gambits are EXTREMELY useful. Eg: 1. when you want to escalate on a two-set and you are with a wing, make sure you turn/move the chicks so they can't judge each other. Sometimes useful with non-slut-wannabe chicks. 2. Autopilot closing/moving/escalation routines. Make it a reflex.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ya this is a semantics argument. The OP is talking about using pre-written, scripted lines/storys that have but in DHVs, disqualifiers, false time constraints, etc. built into them.

                    Ive never used them personally because I always had the mindset that the ultimate goal was to get good at improvising on the fly.

                    IMO There are so many other 'tools' to use rather then scripted lines and stories (especially if they aren't even true).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DragonJing View Post
                      Becoming more and more eager to get results and overcome certain stuck points I'm considering using routine based game. Not entirely routine based of course but I'm thinking of adding a few routines to my arsenal of 'game'. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried routines and could give me advice, any objections, any pointers, etc, etc. I am also open to suggestions as to why routine game could be a 'bad choice' or why it could be a 'good choice'? I've tried for years to do things without routines, games, patterns, demonstrations and to be fair I usually get quite a good interaction some of the time, but I'm looking for a sure fire way to peak attraction during interacting. What are your thoughts? (Sure others can learn from this and the reason I'm asking a question probably answered before is because I want to know, mainly if routines are still relevant to pick up)
                      I got a lot out of Mystery Method... I know that around here it is generally thought of as out dated... and it is. But still I think there is value in routine. But, and this is a massive but, you need to do them the right way. Don't use other peoples canned material that is incongruent to who you are and your real and true back story. What you can do and I do often is tell stories that you have told before, that you have refined the telling and timing of and you know are good and fun. They should also reveal something about you… Escalation is a game of emotional strip poker, with each of you taking off one bit of psychic armor at a time. Also with routines there is a tendency to try to be a comedian… Don’t be a comedian. You can tell funny stories, but not all of them should be funny. Exciting, poignant, revealing, and erotic… all work too. If you want to listen to what really good story telling sounds like try listening to some of the story telling on this radio program (link here)

                      Remember that on the radio show they are telling stories with a clear narrative arc.. In a seduction you only want to do that every now and then not all of the time. Most of the time you want to talk in open loops, not always answering questions directly and not even making sense some of the time. You can do this in a lazy languorous way if that is congruent to your personality, or you can do it in a more high energy “grand master” kind of way if you are a extroverted talkative guy like I am. To see how high energy open loops work watch interviews with Russell Brand. (Link) (Link) (Link) he is incredibly charming but it appears genetically incapable of giving a straight answer.

                      Also compliance test… ask woman to do stuff, and then praise them when they do. Many woman have a service oriented sexuality, where they are attracted and aroused by the validation they get from pleasing a man. Also compliance testing reveals the woman’s sexual fantasy archetype… (You Need to Read This Link For the Routine Below to Make Sense)

                      Thin Man’s Credit Card Compliance Routine:

                      I do this when I go out for drinks after work with a small group… I get a table and start a conversation with a person that is not my target, then right after we sit down I hand the target my credit card and kind of arrogantly ask my target to be a love and open a tab for us at the bar. (Delivery matters here… Remember there is a fine line between sexy and sexist, hogs get laid, pigs get slaughtered.) Her response to this compliance test determines my game for the rest of the evening:

                      1. She just goes over and starts a tab (Submissive) when she gets back praise her, tell her to sit next to you. Chat a little in open loops… Tell her you love her shoes, glasses, scarf, bracelet etc… and then take it off of her to “get a better look” kino all around the dressing and undressing.

                      2. She says something about you trusting her with your credit card (Pretty Princess) so maybe she says, “You are just going to give me you Amex… Maybe I’ll buy some shoes…” Banter back in a way that tends to her sensual archetype with something like… “I usually buy my woman lingerie…” Then hand her the card, but take her by the elbow and escort her to the bar… Make her give the card to the bar tender, even though it is yours. Then linger at the bar and ignore the group.

                      3. She says No… In whatever way… Usually this will be a shit test of some kind. (Passion Girl) No problem look her in the eye lean forward, and say, “Thank you HBtarget… You can buy me drinks but you won't take me home tonight, I am keeping my pants on even if you get me drunk, I am not the kind of a girl that has too much to drink and goes home with a stranger.”
                      Last edited by The Thin Man; 05-31-2015, 12:46 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Simply by trying out a lot of crazy shit and other people's routines you will develop your own routine stack. That involves discarding stuff that does not work or is incongruent with your personality, environment or target demographic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Irish Asshole View Post
                          Ya this is a semantics argument. The OP is talking about using pre-written, scripted lines/storys that have but in DHVs, disqualifiers, false time constraints, etc. built into them.

                          Ive never used them personally because I always had the mindset that the ultimate goal was to get good at improvising on the fly.

                          IMO There are so many other 'tools' to use rather then scripted lines and stories (especially if they aren't even true).

                          ^ this!... Anyways, this is another one of those cases, were day gamers will say "day game is the shit", night gamers "will say night game is the shit" online gamer will say "online game is the shit" and on and on....

                          The dudes that started with routines, and now are good, will backward rationalized "routines help me and that is why i a m good today"...

                          A lot of naturals guys used to suck and got good, with 0 routines whatsoever...

                          The routines when they work teach people to be social and not to get laid, the new guy thinks that because he has routines they will work, so gets a placebo effect of confidence... Nevermind the amount of rehersal and memorization makes it complicated...

                          Second problem with routines is that most people will use "pre-existent routines" that are not even congruent, will make a women shit test the dude like crazy to test for congruency. Which is why in my home forum every other post is a question on "what to say and do in a particular scenario".

                          Third problem, routines are outdated "2008" or whatever, there is way more better technology out there.

                          4th problem, if they were to work, the dude was faking being someone he was not, and will go back to be himself at some point in the relationship. The girl will notice, the dude will get back to need vs pretend alpha. Crash and burn....

                          5 th problem the emphasis on routines vs. improving hygine, body language, fitness etc... Believing that lines "will create attraction"....

                          Please take a look at the KING of routines and structure in sedfast Grodmaster general, that journal will tell you everything you need to know of why routine is a huge waste of time... (oh oh i hope i don't wake the dude up)



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To add to what others have said here:

                            Natural routines (doing the same thing with girls over and over again with only slight calibration between them) happen all the time. Hell, I don't make up new stories or escalate differently each time so I suppose I still use "routines". But I think that using any canned material or planning what you are going to say/do before hand is curing the symptom and not the actual problem. Is it helpful to boost your confidence? Yeah, sure. But for me at least, it lead to fear of not using them and lead me to have a false sense of what it meant to be good with women.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Routines are useful toy models for how a successful interactions with women look like, especially for parts of the interaction you might have no first hand familiarity with. They helped me enormously. I remember specifically how some of Mystery's stuff helped me initiate touching random chicks that you sarge - i needed an excuse, and i had no idea how that would look like.

                              Skills360's post on this thread is largely emotional garbage. As is often the case wirh anyone who writes walls of text about how something does NOT work.

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