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Intro post - We're not in Kansas Anymore! Question about converting to open marriage

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  • plur4life
    replied
    Originally posted by throughfare View Post
    @plur4life ,

    Some blunt/tough love coming up: You're coming at this from an ass-backward perspective.

    You're approaching this conundrum in "Guy Mode" ... the way a guy thinks.

    Guys talk logically about what they want, and they think they'll get women to respond by doing that.

    Women respond to feelings.

    You need to start a program of attaching good feelings to the concept of an open marriage.

    This will take time.

    You subcommunicate this ... You do not "bring it up."

    Use that time to be an awesome dad to your new kid.

    And work on your long game.

    There are more ways to enhance this effort, but let's just start with this. If you'd like some other ideas, please say so.
    ____________________________________________

    PS - Keep in mind that old saying. "Be careful what you wish for- you may get it!"

    Make sure before you start any program of influence that you are crystal clear in your mind what your goals for an open marriage are.

    There are open relationships and open relationships.
    • Do you want to swing
    • do you want 3somes
    • are you a cuckold fetishist, i.e., do you want to watch her
    • do you want to do sexual spirituality/tantric personal development that involves sharing with multiple partners


    List this shit out and have your goals in place before you even begin to work on her
    If I'm being honest with myself I really just want to have sex with other girls. I would be down for a threesome although I'm not sure if she would ever be. I might consider swinging, although I pretty much just want to have my cake and eat it too. I would def be interested in the sexual spirituality, although I'm not sure what all that entails. I would def be open to hearing more ways on how to subcommunicate to her.

    Our son was born a couple weeks ago just shy of 9 pounds, and he even came a few days before the due date. So far things are going really well (knock on wood). She has been a little more emotional but def doesn't have post-partum. He has been sleeping in clusters of 3 hours at night so we've been able to get some decent sleep in. I'm very curious to see how having a kid will impact my freedom. I know it will be a little less, but I'm hoping I will be able to do pretty much whatever I want because we have very willing grandparents to take him at pretty much any time. I'm going to a rave next month so that's a good sign I'm still relatively "free". Once again I appreciate all the advice in this thread. I have been focusing on family right now, and like I said it has been going well.

    Leave a comment:


  • throughfare
    replied
    Originally posted by plur4life View Post
    She couldn't believe I would even consider something like that when I brought it up quite awhile back.

    I feel later down the road she may eventually come to accept it if I introduce it correctly
    @plur4life ,

    Some blunt/tough love coming up: You're coming at this from an ass-backward perspective.

    You're approaching this conundrum in "Guy Mode" ... the way a guy thinks.

    Guys talk logically about what they want, and they think they'll get women to respond by doing that.

    Women respond to feelings.

    You need to start a program of attaching good feelings to the concept of an open marriage.

    This will take time.

    You subcommunicate this ... You do not "bring it up."

    Use that time to be an awesome dad to your new kid.

    And work on your long game.

    There are more ways to enhance this effort, but let's just start with this. If you'd like some other ideas, please say so.
    ____________________________________________

    PS - Keep in mind that old saying. "Be careful what you wish for- you may get it!"

    Make sure before you start any program of influence that you are crystal clear in your mind what your goals for an open marriage are.

    There are open relationships and open relationships.
    • Do you want to swing
    • do you want 3somes
    • are you a cuckold fetishist, i.e., do you want to watch her
    • do you want to do sexual spirituality/tantric personal development that involves sharing with multiple partners


    List this shit out and have your goals in place before you even begin to work on her

    Leave a comment:


  • Sase
    replied
    You are betaizng yourself. Why is her acceptance of you so important? Strength comes from within. Be the Man. Expect to be tested. Pass with a smile. Reward her for appreciating you withdraw reward when she is ungrateful. gotta run I'll clarify later.

    Leave a comment:


  • plur4life
    replied
    Originally posted by Sase View Post
    Back to OP. Listen to all but give more weight to the advice from people who have gone through parenting. You will understand more of it when you'll be a parent yourself. As a parent I can fully understand, resonate and agree with SiverTree's or UncleWalker's experience and advice. Not so much with Skills'. Hire a hooker. Get caught. Unleash the wrath of a new mother. She might just cry and forgive you. Maybe. More likely she will turn against you forever. And she will rally her parents, yours, your friends, the church, and every judge in county against you. Your girlfriend and the mother of your child are very different women. Unless you have experienced fatherhood it's going to be very hard to fully understand that.
    OK, some practical advice: P4L, in all your posts you mention your wife's benevolence towards you. She either accepts who you are becoming or LETS YOU do things. Think about that. I'd want to hear your thoughts on that first before I jump in with suggestions. Where does that attitude come from? What would be a better attitude?
    Wow this is an incredibly thought provoking post! I literally just asked her if she accepts the man who I've become and her answer was, "I wouldn't be with you if I didn't." Powerful words from an amazing woman. 5 years ago in Jan. 2010 I went to a Steve Pavlina Conscious Growth Workshop (seems way longer ago than that!). Since then I would say I have become an entirely new person from my conservative Christian days. From becoming an avid raver and all that entails (being very responsible I might add) when she hates EDM, to becoming a brony, to completely renouncing Christianity (I believe in a more Neil Donald Walsh type of God), to becoming active in couchsurfing and hosting strangers in our house (not a lot of Kansans I've talked to would even consider it - imagine that! My wife was VERY skeptical at first too), to discovering entrepreneurship and risking all I had in a field I had ZERO experience in and finding an amazing tribe of like-minded folk - not one person believed in me, not my family, or her family, or even she was very skeptical but still supportive - I just now asked her thoughts and she said she thought I would give up on it and do something else, I would say it's true that she does accept me for who I am and who I have become.

    The one thing she is not on board with is the open marriage though...lol, but for good reason. That is not what she signed up for. She couldn't believe I would even consider something like that when I brought it up quite awhile back. I feel later down the road she may eventually come to accept it if I introduce it correctly though, but I am going to focus on my family until that time comes. I appreciate your post and look forward to your response.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sase
    replied
    Originally posted by pureevil View Post
    ... I disagree with your "charity, volunteering, life mission, good diet, exercise" analysis, my hypothesis would be that a person's subjective sense of well being would increase as these are added into one's life.
    Maybe I was unclear. I agree with your hypothesis. The study measured the subjective sense of well-being in the moment and found correlations between that and the likelihood of having subsequent children. It is a boring study. Most germans want more than one child, the study shows that when under stress, people are less able to follow through with their plans. We are less likely to be proactive when urgent and important things (toddlers) need all of our attention. As in other instances in life, when pushed against the wall, that is the most important (and most difficult) time to be economical and proactive. Those results are not surprising. We all knew that for a while. To make the "results" more exciting for the media, they noted an increase/decrease of self-reported well being over time. That created paradox. Paradoxes make good news fodder. But the participants were not asked "are you less happy now than before the child was born?" If they had been asked that, then the results would have been different.
    My examples stand. Here are a few more life situations:
    Ask a student on spring break in Myrtle Beach and his life is a 10. Same guy a few years later pursuing his dream career, his life is at 8. Is he worse off? Should he go back to college life? Would you? Anyone could, you know. Nobody does it.
    Vacation planning, preparations, and expectations are one or two points more exciting than the unpacking, memories, and souvenirs of the same vacation. Does that mean that vacationing is bad for our well being?
    A 17 year old who just got accepted in an exceptional ivy-league collage thinks herself very smart indeed. A 10 in academics on a 1 to 10 scale. After four years of college she knows she could go on to graduate school and then to a doctorate degree. She was not the best in her class. And she just learned about how much there is to learn about. She sees herself as a 7 or 8 in academics. Does that mean the 4 years of college was bad for her academically?
    As our horizons expand we get to aim further. It is the same with parenthood.
    Back to OP. Listen to all but give more weight to the advice from people who have gone through parenting. You will understand more of it when you'll be a parent yourself. As a parent I can fully understand, resonate and agree with SiverTree's or UncleWalker's experience and advice. Not so much with Skills'. Hire a hooker. Get caught. Unleash the wrath of a new mother. She might just cry and forgive you. Maybe. More likely she will turn against you forever. And she will rally her parents, yours, your friends, the church, and every judge in county against you. Your girlfriend and the mother of your child are very different women. Unless you have experienced fatherhood it's going to be very difficult to fully understand that.
    OK, some practical advice: P4L, in all your posts you mention your wife's benevolence towards you. She either accepts who you are becoming or LETS YOU do things. Think about that. I'd want to hear your thoughts on that first before I jump in with suggestions. Where does that attitude come from? What would be a better attitude?

    Leave a comment:


  • pureevil
    replied
    Originally posted by Uncle Walker View Post
    I think its important to take judgment out of a discussion like this one.
    I wasn't judging, not sure that's what you're meaning, just clarifying. I make a conscientious effort to never judge, and think "should" in most contexts is the most useless and harmful word/concept in the english language.

    Hence a scientific study that delivers objective counter-intuitive results. It backs what Silvertree, and now you, two guys with experience here, are saying: to hold off on an open relationship attempt till everyone's settled into the new lifestyle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncle Walker
    replied
    Originally posted by pureevil View Post
    Here's a PDF of the full study, its not that simple. . . .
    I think its important to take judgment out of a discussion like this one. In my case, the intimacy in my marriage plunged, and so did sexual frequency. We became more of teammates than mates. The reality of parenting set in, the fear that something bad might happen was huge. Yes, it was the reason I bothered to breathe and far more my mission than hers but we can still be honest about the negatives as well as the positives.

    P4L this might be important for you now too. I restructured my self image. I began the process of becoming a frumpy old guy with kids. Things like being decisive, embracing tension, being bold, teasing, being attractive, etc took a big step backward. It was all about creating a calm stable environment to raise kids. I think I went to far, but then again I might not have made a mistake and it was her. It takes two to tango and maybe she just didn't want to dance.


    Anyway, one of the biggest changes I had to make after the D was to go back to being an attractive man. I can assure you that being a such is not incompatible with being a good father. Do you best not to lose that. And while you wait for a better time you can decide whether this is really something you want to do. BD is just a man. His ideas do not have to be yours. If you do decide its something you want to pursue and when the time is right, I will encourage you to flirt with her with the idea. It is an emotional thing not a logical one. Do you find so and so attractive? Would you go fo it if you had the chance to sleep with [insert her hot guy from Hollywood]?


    But not now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skills360
    replied
    Originally posted by plur4life View Post
    Hey guys, just wanted to post an intro to try and get to my 5 post quota. I really just want to post my situation and question to the relationships section, but I suppose I can post it here in the meantime.

    I am a 31 y/o male from Kansas in a monogamous marriage it a 28 y/o woman for 4 years, together 7 years. I didn't really discover BD's stuff until it was "too late" and I wouldn't have gotten legally married haha. We are about to have our first kid, due in less than 2 weeks, so that's a BIG change as well.

    I would say I pretty much have the "perfect" marriage besides the whole monogamous part. If I could unlock that, I would consider it the "perfect" marriage. She gives me basically no drama, and there has been none even during the whole pregnancy. The VERY few times it has happened she apologizes after or it is indeed something I did wrong. I am also VERY fortunate to have set the proper frame by chance when we started getting serious that I will basically "do whatever I want when I want". I am able to travel wherever I want, go out anytime, and am basically 100% free. For example I went on the Groove Cruise with my brother because she doesn't like EDM. How many wives would let their husbands do that? I can have sex with her whenever I want - I can probably count on one hand the times she has refused due to non-medical reasons in the past 7 years. That said, we end up doing it about 2-3 times a week on average. I would say I have a "normal" or maybe even below-average sex drive - especially compared to most of you on here I'm sure.

    I guess my question is how should I go about opening up my marriage? I have read BD's book on how to convert to an open marriage, but one of the key points is you have to be willing to divorce over this issue - it is a non-negotiable. I guess to me, it IS negotiable at this point because I am not willing to throw away my near-perfect marriage over this issue........yet. I have introduced it once and it did not go over well for obvious reasons - we are monogamously married and she couldn't believe I would even consider something like that. Which is true, I married and committed to her only to discover this possibility after the fact. I should not have an expectation for her to change since that is not what she signed up for and I can't force her into it since she will resent me.

    I think my only chance is to introduce her to the possibility again and just keep it in her mind. I just got the book Sex at Dawn and could start a discussion about it once I read it. Also one of her best friends is bisexual and in an open marriage (basically swinger type) and I already talked to her and I'm sure she'd be very supportive in open discussions with my wife. I will also say I have had the ability to cheat in my travels several times, but have remained 100% faithful, which I think will be very helpful in this matter. Any thoughts on the matter is appreciated!
    In your situation what i would do is little by little start with the brainwashing process, then the easiest and most realistic way is to do swing clubs (high class ones and good ones), meanwhile i would do escorts (if you have the finances)... Really really really bad timing though, i lean in your situation toward escorts.

    p.s. in before nwp destroys me, i already know what you are going to say, my apologies in advance...

    Leave a comment:


  • Silvertree
    replied
    The first two years are the most work and stress. After that, the child can hold conversations and is a better companion, and is sorta housebroken. At one, we were calling the kid, The Little Tornado. The time from when they can crawl through where they have learned the major safety rules is a lot of stress. Before that, they cannot hurt themselves if you do not leave them where they can fall off of anything. I usually set the kid on a blanket on the floor.

    We also were older and expected to have no life for a few years. But my overall happiness was high. You have to learn to enjoy different things and adapt. I watched a lot of kid TV & Movies and played a lot of board games for age 2 - 6.

    Leave a comment:


  • pureevil
    replied
    Here's a PDF of the full study, its not that simple, its been an ongoing 16 year study: http://download.springer.com/static/...d06ec2f781a82d

    I agree only so much can be inferred by any one study, but i do think there's value in analyzing the levels of subjective well being starting two years before pregnancy, during pregnancy, and after chilbbirth. It only goes to one year after childbirth, I don't know why they stopped there, hopefully they'll continue the study with the same sample of people for additional years, as by year 2 or 3 there could be a dramatic uptick for all we know.

    Its interesting to see the spike that pregnancy causes, and the drop after the child is born. This is worth bringing up because the OP is about to enter this phase, where people lose a lot of sleep and their freedom disappears. It makes sense that their subjective well being would drop for the first year. So this may not be the best time to bring up an open relationship, add another potential stressor on top. I'm agreeing with Silvertree here, this backs up his advice to focus on being a father for the present time, and bring up the open marriage once everyone settles into the new lifestyle that a baby causes.

    I do think you have some good additional questions that could also be analyzed before, during, and after for how they change over this time period, that would help round out the picture.

    I disagree with your "charity, volunteering, life mission, good diet, exercise" analysis, my hypothesis would be that a person's subjective sense of well being would increase as these are added into one's life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sase
    replied
    PE, that study is idiotic. Maybe the media misses the point in it's rush to sensationalize but I don't see where they are heading with that question.
    A couple of years ago I jumped back into the low-pay-long-hours non-profit job I had previously quit in 2000. It's really my "dream job", my life mission. If you asked me how happy I was a couple of years back, when I was freelancing, self-employed, care-free coasting through life, I am sure I would have rated my happiness higher than now. What does that tell you? Exercising and calorie tracking also make me less happy, while gorging myself and zoning out in front of the TV feels very content. Volunteering as an EMT for the local fire department made me very "unhappy" for sure. After a sleepless night, trying and failing to save the life of some youngster who decided to drive a little too fast, I know I would have rated my life a few points less happy. Receiving gifts makes me "happy". When it comes to me donating to charities, I procrastinate, I am torn, filled with doubt, and end up making a bunch of meaningless calculations. So: charity, volunteering, life mission, diet, exercise, and, yes, parenthood can all be construed as sources of unhappiness. If you are asking the wrong question, that is. I'm sure you can add more to the list.
    Here are a different type of questions: What adds value to your life? Is there something/anything, or someone/anyone you are willing to die for? Here's a tricky one: If a child coming into your life changes it so that you'd be willing to die to protect that child, does that make your life worth more or less than it was before the child's arrival? Hmmm...
    I don't know what childless people think about on their death bed. I know that for me, when the time comes, the hardest thing to let go will be my children. There is no close second. No wish that I could have spent more hours at the office, no missed financial opportunities, not even the regrets over some chick or another that I could have banged and I didn't. LOL! None of that comes close to the feeling of fuzzy warm baby head under your chin, falling asleep against your heartbeat. You see, parenthood brings a different kind of happiness in your life. Watching the unfolding of this miracle: human life, the memories you build while witnessing and facilitating their discovery of this world, THAT is the hardest thing parents have to let go off on their death bed. That's a happiness that cannot be measured against anything else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Silvertree
    replied
    Parenthood changed me in a lot of ways. It forced me to grow up, for one. I was a 44 year old teenager when the kid was born. I am glad I did it.

    I am a much stronger, more stable, more together person today because of child rearing. It forces you to put the needs of another ahead of your own and teaches you to manage chaos. It was also a lot of fun. From making cookies with a 3 year old, to instructing a 15 year old as she heads into rush hour traffic for the first time, at the wheel of your car; it is a wild ride. Right now the big deal is finding the right Grad School program. It never ends.

    Leave a comment:


  • pureevil
    replied
    Originally posted by Silvertree View Post
    For now, I highly recommend getting into being a father, it is the best/worst most joyful/trying job you will ever have.
    I don't know if you saw all the news articles on a study that was published earlier this month, but apparently parenthood runs a high risk of affecting a person more negatively than the death of a loved one.

    One of the articles: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...-a-new-parent/

    Study: http://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/projects...ssion_5339.htm

    This is prob OT, but is this true in your experience? I def agree, given this information, that the OP would do best focusing on parenthood for the next few years before throwing an open relationship into the middle of things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Silvertree
    replied
    I am a father, and I was where you are now, 22 years ago.

    For now, I highly recommend getting into being a father, it is the best/worst most joyful/trying job you will ever have, and the first few years are a special time that will shape your child forever. If you do your job well, your relationship with your wife will be strengthened. If you do poorly, you are in for a hurricane of trouble.

    You should be using this place as a source of learning relationship management, as that, short term, is the most useful thing you can learn here. There is going to be a lot of stress on your relationship in the next few years, and it is going to take every ounce of leadership skill and every erg of energy you have to make it to that wonderful day when the little tot heads off to school. Your wife is going to loose all the happiness hormones a few months after the birth as the drudgery of childcare sets in. That is when you either do it right or screw up monumentally.

    Don't let little things rock the boat to where it sinks, and enjoy the ride.

    The next few years will mature you a lot, which is highly attractive to women. Keep reading about seduction and female behavioral traits here too. The time to use them will come. Men stay attractive much longer than women.

    You have a lot of deprogramming to do. I came from a fanatical Catholic home and was educated by fanatical Priests and Nuns, so I understand the depth of the hole you have to climb out of. It took your whole life to get you in that hole; it is going to take more than a few months to get you out of it.
    Last edited by Silvertree; 08-31-2015, 06:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • plur4life
    replied
    Some more great posts, my friend was right in recommending me post this here. I admit I fucked up. I settled down too early, was falsely programmed through Christianity and only now want to "sow my wild oats". I am very grateful for the situation I have and realize most married men can only dream of the kind of situation I am in. I am trying to have my cake and eat it to. While someday it might be possible, I definitely am not going to even bring up the possibility for quite awhile. I am happy where I am at and will definitely focus on my family during this time.

    I also don't want you to get the picture that I'm off gallivanting all over the place while neglecting my wife. I'd say it's quite the contrary in that she feels very taken care of and trusts me completely, so she gives me the freedom to do the things I want, and I don't abuse it. It all ties in together. I will not ruin this special time and you guys have helped me realize that. Once the kid is a little older and we are more stable again will I consider the issue again. I appreciate all your input!

    Leave a comment:

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