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  • #31
    At the gym today tried to be positive with the girl working the desk. Instead of enjoy it, she seemed taken aback by it. I don't understand what "value" means at ALL.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
      At the gym today tried to be positive with the girl working the desk. Instead of enjoy it, she seemed taken aback by it. I don't understand what "value" means at ALL.
      What happened?

      I think value meaning what's important to that person. A girl who likes/wants to travel could value a guy who's traveled for instance. He could talk about many places he's seen or experienced especially if he put it in such a descriptive way that she can envision it. Then without asking for anything in return from her he could just take her somewhere she never been. That's giving value because you're giving her an experience. This is just my take on it btw. If someone else has a way better explanation I'm all for it.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Tagz View Post
        What happened?
        I walked up to the desk, smiled at the girl and said "Hi." she's like "How are you?" I try to be upbeat and say "I'm GOOD how are you?"

        She doesn't answer and helps me with my membership tag (needs to be scanned) and says "have a great workout"

        Originally posted by Tagz View Post

        I think value meaning what's important to that person. A girl who likes/wants to travel could value a guy who's traveled for instance. He could talk about many places he's seen or experienced especially if he put it in such a descriptive way that she can envision it. Then without asking for anything in return from her he could just take her somewhere she never been. That's giving value because you're giving her an experience. This is just my take on it btw. If someone else has a way better explanation I'm all for it.
        Again, I don't see the difference between doing this and doing the so-called beta thing "permisiveness".

        Isn't permisiveness when you augment yourself for the girl's benefit?

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        • #34
          Ok, what the fuck is with all the downvoting? I'm trying to learn and improve myself and I get downvoted? Wtf kind of community is this?

          I've done nothing but improve and try to understand things and I keep getting downvoted! Seriously, wtf??

          EDIT:

          Here is the issue I'm having with the "permissive" behavior bit:

          DIRECT Quote from COCPORN's Book:

          "Your core values are always going to shine through. These are not important
          directly to “create attraction”, meaning, you do not want to pick core values to
          align with someone.
          This isn’t necessary; it is actually an attraction killer. This
          kind of behavior is highly supplicating and what we usually consider "permissive"
          .

          And then:

          Originally posted by Supernova View Post
          So you have to give in a way that is valuable for other people.
          and

          Originally posted by Supernova View Post
          2. Look to understand how she's sees things as valuable.

          and

          Originally posted by Tagz View Post
          I think value meaning what's important to that person. A girl who likes/wants to travel could value a guy who's traveled for instance. He could talk about many places he's seen or experienced especially if he put it in such a descriptive way that she can envision it. Then without asking for anything in return from her he could just take her somewhere she never been. That's giving value because you're giving her an experience. This is just my take on it btw. If someone else has a way better explanation I'm all for it.

          Yes indeed. If someone can explain this I'm all for it too, hence the questions.

          I'm not going to stop asking the question just because I've been downvoted, I'll stop asking the question when it's been explained.

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          • #35
            Nevermind, I think I get it now. It's not supplicating if it gets you your intended result.

            Gonna do more approaches soon.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
              Nevermind, I think I get it now. It's not supplicating if it gets you your intended result. ...
              LOL. Bass Ackwards! Abandoning your values to obtain something you really want ("pussy", no less) is the definition of supplication.
              Lemme think. I see you're trying your darnest. It's pretty simple, really, maybe too simple. Maybe that's why people can't answer your questions. I'll be back...

              Comment


              • #37
                OK, so Supernova said "1) Aim to give. 2) Look to understand..." And that confused you.
                "1)" means stop being a selfish bastard, obsessed with your (one) need;
                "2)" means you have to somehow overcome the Autistic disconnect that seems to follow you. It can be done. You can learn to care for people and to read their emotions and needs.
                Somehow you feel that giving value to another person is supplicating (or "permissive"). It is if you are a very selfish person who hurts when making someone else happy. Kindness, generosity, and gratefulness are some of my core values. I do not alter those for anybody. I also do not associate with people who do not share in those values (no matter how hot they might be.) If I show kindness and it is met with entitlement instead of grace, I walk away from that person. There is no chance my kindness will be read as supplication.
                Here is a concrete example using your interaction today: "
                I walked up to the desk, smiled at the girl and said
                "Hi." she's like "How are you?" I try to be upbeat and say "I'm GOOD how are you?"


                She doesn't answer and helps me with my membership tag (needs to be scanned) and says "have a great workout"
                It sounds like she might have been tired, annoyed, preoccupied. You could have looked around and said: "Wow, it looks packed today. Long day?" "How are you doing (holding up, etc.)?" Show some empathy. Then show gratitude for her work, encourage her: "I'm sure it gets tough sometimes but think of all the good you're doing. The people you're helping live longer, healthier, happier..."
                Yeah, all this might not get you laid but it's a basic skill and a prerequisite to Seduction 101.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sase View Post
                  OK, so Supernova said "1) Aim to give. 2) Look to understand..." And that confused you.
                  "1)" means stop being a selfish bastard, obsessed with your (one) need;
                  "2)" means you have to somehow overcome the Autistic disconnect that seems to follow you. It can be done. You can learn to care for people and to read their emotions and needs.
                  I wasn't confused as to what it meant so much as how to do it in a way that wasn't supplicating.

                  Originally posted by Sase View Post
                  Somehow you feel that giving value to another person is supplicating (or "permissive"). It is if you are a very selfish person who hurts when making someone else happy. Kindness, generosity, and gratefulness are some of my core values. I do not alter those for anybody. I also do not associate with people who do not share in those values (no matter how hot they might be.) If I show kindness and it is met with entitlement instead of grace, I walk away from that person. There is no chance my kindness will be read as supplication.
                  Ok, just so you know, my mother is one of those people, so this is very difficult for me. It's hard when what people value is your submission, you know? Also, my whole family seems f*cked up (my counselor agrees).

                  Just today I mentioned to my brother if I were him I'd get his cough checked out (sounds like he's dying, and it's been going on a LONG time, and he's in denial about it, saying it's only been a few days when it's weeks. He's a smoker and is so thin he looks like he lives in a third world country).

                  Isn't that caring for people?


                  Originally posted by Sase View Post
                  Here is a concrete example using your interaction today: "
                  I walked up to the desk, smiled at the girl and said
                  "Hi." she's like "How are you?" I try to be upbeat and say "I'm GOOD how are you?"


                  She doesn't answer and helps me with my membership tag (needs to be scanned) and says "have a great workout"
                  It sounds like she might have been tired, annoyed, preoccupied. You could have looked around and said: "Wow, it looks packed today. Long day?" "How are you doing (holding up, etc.)?" Show some empathy. Then show gratitude for her work, encourage her: "I'm sure it gets tough sometimes but think of all the good you're doing. The people you're helping live longer, healthier, happier..."
                  Yeah, all this might not get you laid but it's a basic skill and a prerequisite to Seduction 101.
                  Ok, thanks. To be honest I did do this alot before finding the community but then I thought it was beta to be an emotional tampon.

                  Another thing that confuses me is the supportive thing.

                  I tried this with my hairdresser yesterday, she was going on about working out and how hard it is. I was like "yeah I know, it's tough. But I think it's good that you're improving yourself" and she just went silent. ?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Kindness is not supplicating. But it's difficult for me to explain.
                    Do you see a difference between "niceness" and "kindness"? Maybe that's a good way to start. Let me know your thoughts.
                    Another thought: I read a sentence long time ago, I don't remember the author (French), or the book title, but it said something like "Only a true slave is afraid to hold another man's coat." Does that make any sense?
                    Emotional tampon is bad. Really bad. I was talking about more of a "Come to Daddy." energy. Be Boss! (Not a rag.)
                    Regarding the supportive thing, sometimes listening is the first and most supportive thing. That's a big one, with which I'm still struggling myself. Maybe the hairdresser was actually bragging (some people sound like they are complaining when they are bragging). Instead of reassurance right away it would be better to listen more,and milk it more. "How do you feel about blah-blah?"
                    Anyway "nice" vs. "kind " is a big one for you. :et me think what you think of that. It will clarify some confusion around supplication.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sase View Post
                      Kindness is not supplicating. But it's difficult for me to explain.
                      Do you see a difference between "niceness" and "kindness"? Maybe that's a good way to start. Let me know your thoughts.
                      YES! This is a GREAT place to start because the answer is "not really".

                      Whenever I hear this kind of advice I believe it's niceness, and whenever I try to be kind, I think it coimes off as niceness, so the only way I've been able to "be" is toi simpoly not be kind or nice but at least people know I don't want anything from them, if that makes sense.

                      But yes, you hit the nail on the head, this is EXACTLY my issue, which is that I can't tell the difference, and it seems people can't either (when I do kind things. I even stopped being kind as much because people would always interporet it as me supplicating)

                      Originally posted by Sase View Post
                      Another thought: I read a sentence long time ago, I don't remember the author (French), or the book title, but it said something like "Only a true slave is afraid to hold another man's coat." Does that make any sense?
                      I think so, it's like how high value men don't worry about being "friend zoned" by girls because they can get sex whenever. Or how men who are good with women don't need to withhold compliments (I've heard). Am I right?



                      Originally posted by Sase View Post
                      Emotional tampon is bad. Really bad. I was talking about more of a "Come to Daddy." energy. Be Boss! (Not a rag.)
                      Well I don't get that, sorry. I mean, it could be I have no reference for some of this stuff in my head.

                      Originally posted by Sase View Post
                      Regarding the supportive thing, sometimes listening is the first and most supportive thing. That's a big one, with which I'm still struggling myself. Maybe the hairdresser was actually bragging (some people sound like they are complaining when they are bragging). Instead of reassurance right away it would be better to listen more,and milk it more. "How do you feel about blah-blah?"
                      Yeah I have NO problems listening. The hairdresser went out with me 3 times because I listened to her. It was only when I started trying to "add value" that things got weird with her. Now I feel like I'm back to square one with her.

                      Originally posted by Sase View Post
                      Anyway "nice" vs. "kind " is a big one for you. :et me think what you think of that. It will clarify some confusion around supplication.
                      Yes, this is the big one, it comes up time and time again for me and drives me crazy.

                      Here are my thoughts: I'm a cool guy. people like talking to me and they assume I'm high status, but whenever I go into "provide value" mode, they misinterpret it as me trying to buy them i.e. "low status" behavior, so they drop me.

                      It seems to be a common trend, especially in my pick up journey, where I won't do any value giving (like none. I'm like the most leechy person ever, but I'm so cool about it so maybe it doesn't matter) and then as I get further into the interactions I ask for advice or read articles and always come across this "give value" principle. Then I start to give value and then bamn, I lose attraction and everything.

                      So, I believe that my value could be highest when I'm not giving value. Because just like how a slave is only a slave when he doesn't want to hold a man's coat, so too is a high value man not high value if he has to keep providing it for people to associate with him.

                      In effect, giving value is like bribing people.

                      That's how I see it, let me know your thoughts.

                      I'm extremely relieved to see you got this and I'm hoping I'm on the right track.

                      Because I can not stress enough how often I've had girls that I lost once I went into the "value giving" thing.

                      I don't think girls like me when I give value, I don't think anyone does. People like me because I ask questions, listen, and make them feel good about the things they know. That's my guess, and what's wrong with that?


                      Anyhow, thanks for your help, I'm really appreciating it. I feel like I'm close to a breakthrough.

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                      • #41
                        Ok, I'll be back with more but here's some food for thought:
                        nice- origin: 1250-1300; Middle English: foolish, stupid < Old French: silly, simple < Latin nescius ignorant,incapable,...
                        (don't worry, most people understand the word "nice" as you do, as a synonym to something good, not in it's original meaning. )
                        And here is a woman's perspective on the difference: Nice vs. Kind
                        The article can seem pretty harsh. It is not. Not compared to the way women feel about "nice" guys. Most women never gave much thought to the word but emotionally they are very aware of the difference. Aware and unforgiving.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sase View Post
                          Ok, I'll be back with more but here's some food for thought:
                          nice- origin: 1250-1300; Middle English: foolish, stupid < Old French: silly, simple < Latin nescius ignorant,incapable,...
                          (don't worry, most people understand the word "nice" as you do, as a synonym to something good, not in it's original meaning. )
                          And here is a woman's perspective on the difference: Nice vs. Kind
                          The article can seem pretty harsh. It is not. Not compared to the way women feel about "nice" guys. Most women never gave much thought to the word but emotionally they are very aware of the difference. Aware and unforgiving.
                          Well reading that article I can see myself in a lot of it, mostly in this forum (noit saying what I want to for fear of downvotes, for example)

                          The problem is, I'm not a genuinely kind person. As I alluded to, I came from an unhealthy family and the only options to me are to be nice, or be an asshole.

                          I hope you can help me find a way out of this, but as it stands, the bottom line seems to be "genuine". And so, even if I learned to support others and give value, it would not be genuine, and would come off as nice.

                          That's most likely what's going on.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Answer in blue italics
                            Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
                            Well reading that article I can see myself in a lot of it, mostly in this forum (noit saying what I want to for fear of downvotes, for example)
                            Awesome honesty here. You have no issues being "genuine".
                            The problem is, I'm not a genuinely kind person. As I alluded to, I came from an unhealthy family and the only options to me are to be nice, or be an asshole.
                            I'm not sure about you not being kind enough. It could be that you are not giving yourself enough credit. There are lots of meaner, more selfish people than you who are getting laid plenty. They have found ways to share just enough of themselves to establish intimacy in the moment. When you find out how to do that you'll be amazed at how easy it is. Also, again, drop the victimhood. Not sexy. I assure you plenty confident, kind, successful people have come out of worse families than yours. stop blaming them. That excuse is lame.

                            I hope you can help me find a way out of this, but as it stands, the bottom line seems to be "genuine". And so, even if I learned to support others and give value, it would not be genuine, and would come off as nice.

                            That's most likely what's going on.
                            As I said before, I think you have a knack for being genuine. I don't think that will be a problem for you. And yes, "genuine" is a pretty key concept. Live for a few days with the newfound understanding (of "nice" vs. "kind") and see how it shows in your interactions with others. This understanding needs a little bit of time to sink in.
                            Next, I'm concerned with your understanding of "support and give value". Think of it as a recommendation that you "add" value to peoples lives, not that you "give" necessarily anything. Do you see the difference?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sase View Post
                              Answer in blue italics

                              Awesome honesty here. You have no issues being "genuine".


                              Thank you. I value my authenticity a lot.


                              Originally posted by Sase View Post

                              I'm not sure about you not being kind enough. It could be that you are not giving yourself enough credit. There are lots of meaner, more selfish people than you who are getting laid plenty. They have found ways to share just enough of themselves to establish intimacy in the moment. When you find out how to do that you'll be amazed at how easy it is. Also, again, drop the victimhood. Not sexy. I assure you plenty confident, kind, successful people have come out of worse families than yours. stop blaming them. That excuse is lame.


                              You're right, of course. I only mentioned it to give you an idea of what I'm grappling with. I'm not blaming them, rather providing context. But I agree, it's far better to focus on what I need to do than what 'problems' I have.


                              Originally posted by Sase View Post

                              As I said before, I think you have a knack for being genuine. I don't think that will be a problem for you. And yes, "genuine" is a pretty key concept. Live for a few days with the newfound understanding (of "nice" vs. "kind") and see how it shows in your interactions with others. This understanding needs a little bit of time to sink in.
                              Next, I'm concerned with your understanding of "support and give value". Think of it as a recommendation that you "add" value to peoples lives, not that you "give" necessarily anything. Do you see the difference?
                              Ok. I'll read the article again.

                              What I really want is a way to be successful with women while being genuine and getting which women I want.

                              As i alluded to, I had a few dates with my hairdresser and I'd like to seduce her, but i definitely feel something was off in my texting (too "gamey" I think) and I tried to escalate her to sex.

                              But here's a question about genuineness vs. PUA: See, I liked the idea of escalating and making her submit to me sexually, and the idea of mutual escalation sounded too, I dunno, robotic to me. Whereas escalation was more passionate and "in the moment". So you see, those kinds of clashes are what I struggle with most, and it's very hard for me to know what is a fundamental, and what is simply personal preference.

                              As for "add" vs. "give" I don't understand. What do you mean? If you simply mean express myself then yeah, that's easy enough. But if you mean express myself in a way that women will respond to, i guess I have trouble with that.

                              And if you mean something else, then I don't know what you mean.

                              Again, thank you for your assistance. I feel like I'm so close, I just need a few little things like you said and I'll be able to enjoy women fully.

                              I got a taste of it a few weeks ago and I want more. I also want to have great relationships with people. Those are my 2 main goals of pick up: to get good enough to seduce and fuck any woman while having the best relationships with nearly everyone.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
                                ... What I really want is a way to be successful with women while being genuine and getting which women I want.
                                There are many kinds of genuine. Or many things to be genuine about. Some of them have no place in seduction. You probably read too much and the theory gets in the way.

                                As i alluded to, I had a few dates with my hairdresser and I'd like to seduce her, but i definitely feel something was off in my texting (too "gamey" I think) and I tried to escalate her to sex.
                                I don't know, I wasn't there. But i still feel that you think she doesn't want to be seduced, that escalating "her to sex" is something you do to her for your own selfish pleasure. If so, you're wrong on both accounts. She likes sex and does want to be seduced. She is probably as disappointed as you are that it didn't work out (yet?). Your text sounded a bit boring and chit-chatty to me, if anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "gamey" (Do you mean detached, hard to get, non-needy, dispassionate?)

                                .But here's a question about genuineness vs. PUA: See, I liked the idea of escalating and making her submit to me sexually, and the idea of mutual escalation sounded too, I dunno, robotic to me. Whereas escalation was more passionate and "in the moment". So you see, those kinds of clashes are what I struggle with most, and it's very hard for me to know what is a fundamental, and what is simply personal preference.
                                There is no "genuineness vs. PUA". That view betrays that you still think you have to trick women into sleeping with you. Women want sex with men. Just not with the boring, dorky, selfish, victim, emotionally unavailable, insecure, clingy, part of men. You're not less genuine for not shoving that aspect of you in their face.
                                Passionate vs. coy seduction is indeed preference. But both must be tempered with the opposite. If you play coy, she must feel the simmering passion that you are containing under the surface. If you play Pepe Le Pew, there must be a bit of tongue in (your own) cheek, She must feel that you are able to walk away and be just fine. I like to be somewhere in between. I like to "lead from behind". I like to listen to her needs and pace myself one step behind her desire. Listen to her desire and give it to her passionately but only once she's on the brink of begging for it. Like a Pepe Le Pew on retard mode. Not sure if that makes sense.
                                Sorry, about the fundamentals question. I'm terrible at extracting universal laws from specific instances. Maybe others can help.
                                .As for "add" vs. "give" I don't understand. What do you mean? If you simply mean express myself then yeah, that's easy enough. But if you mean express myself in a way that women will respond to, i guess I have trouble with that.
                                You add value by who you are not by what you give. We are social beings. ("For none of us lives to himself alone..." That's a bible quote but I don't mean it in the religious way.) My life is better because of other wonderful people in it. No need for them to "give" me anything, By having value I add value to the people around me. It's rooted in confidence. The feeling that you must trick people or give them something to get a certain response or get them to submit to you, is rooted insecurity and guilt. Talk to your shrink about these.
                                ....Those are my 2 main goals of pick up: to get good enough to seduce and fuck any woman while having the best relationships with nearly everyone.
                                LOL! Good luck with that. The "any woman" part. See, thinking that way, that you can annihilate people's free will, leads to guilt and takes away from the magic of seduction.
                                And then there is always chloroform
                                But enough with the theory. You are doing well. Your online banter is getting better, more flirty. Keep going. Meanwhile there is a hairdresser waiting to get laid... I'm sure she's not offended by your desire for her. She might fuck you or she might not but I'm sure she enjoys any attention you give her (so far.)

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