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  • #46
    Sorry for hijacking this trhead but this is a really an interesting conversation. I see many similarities to my understanding problems:

    There is no "genuineness vs. PUA". That view betrays that you still think you have to trick women into sleeping with you. Women want sex with men.
    ..Those are my 2 main goals of pick up: to get good enough to seduce and fuck any woman while having the best relationships with nearly everyone.
    LOL! Good luck with that. The "any woman" part. See, thinking that way, that you can annihilate people's free will, leads to guilt and takes away from the magic of seduction.

    @Sase could you (or all other readers with same understanding) could you explain a bit more about that two points?

    I think a good question on the first point is: What is a healthy way of viewing pu material without thinking about it as some sneaky bag of tricks that may get you laid? Or that you NEED to get laid. (somewhere I hold the belief that I dont get laid anymore if I dont master pu).

    //Because that women like sex is easy to understand and dont think that's the problem. I think the problem at least for me is that I think I need to learn something to get laid.

    For the second point: What is a better goal, that inherits the peoples free will? Is there something wrong with putting sex into the goal?


    Maybe I also come across as playing a bit dumb here. But these 2 points are recuring every other month in my mind and I did not get a brain on it yet. Now, here in the forum I have some peope who can may answer the questions better then some books.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      There are many kinds of genuine. Or many things to be genuine about. Some of them have no place in seduction. You probably read too much and the theory gets in the way.
      I agree with you here.


      Originally posted by Sase View Post

      I don't know, I wasn't there. But i still feel that you think she doesn't want to be seduced, that escalating "her to sex" is something you do to her for your own selfish pleasure. If so, you're wrong on both accounts. She likes sex and does want to be seduced. She is probably as disappointed as you are that it didn't work out (yet?). Your text sounded a bit boring and chit-chatty to me, if anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "gamey" (Do you mean detached, hard to get, non-needy, dispassionate?)
      I have the screenshot of a text I made to her that I believe was too gamey:

      https://s19.postimg.org/py92cizgj/Sc...6_07_51_25.png

      I was following some advice from on here but it just seems wrong, and obviously she didn't respond too well.

      I hope she's disappointed enough to continue seeing me and try to get it to work out. I'd hate to lose her because of my inexperience and ignorance.

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      There is no "genuineness vs. PUA". That view betrays that you still think you have to trick women into sleeping with you. Women want sex with men. Just not with the boring, dorky, selfish, victim, emotionally unavailable, insecure, clingy, part of men. You're not less genuine for not shoving that aspect of you in their face.
      Ok, but I still have to have funny text convos? Cause that's not genuine for me at all.

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      Passionate vs. coy seduction is indeed preference. But both must be tempered with the opposite. If you play coy, she must feel the simmering passion that you are containing under the surface. If you play Pepe Le Pew, there must be a bit of tongue in (your own) cheek, She must feel that you are able to walk away and be just fine. I like to be somewhere in between. I like to "lead from behind". I like to listen to her needs and pace myself one step behind her desire. Listen to her desire and give it to her passionately but only once she's on the brink of begging for it. Like a Pepe Le Pew on retard mode. Not sure if that makes sense.
      Kind of makes sense. I mean, when I was Pepe Le Pew-ing her on date 3, every time she said no I'd back off, till eventually I was doing nothing. I haven't texted her since she didn't reply to my last one, and when I saw her for my haircut last friday, things were normal between us and I wasn't crazy or clingy or anything.

      But, god help me, I do love to be like Pepe, but only if she likes it, if that makes sense.

      I don't want her to not like me that way, but I want to be true to myself and say "ok, but this is who I am, I can't change it without "faking" it" if that makes sense.

      I suppose all anyone wants is to be accepted for who they are.

      So how can I be "tongue in cheek" like you say?

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      Sorry, about the fundamentals question. I'm terrible at extracting universal laws from specific instances. Maybe others can help.
      No worries.

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      You add value by who you are not by what you give. We are social beings. ("For none of us lives to himself alone..." That's a bible quote but I don't mean it in the religious way.) My life is better because of other wonderful people in it. No need for them to "give" me anything, By having value I add value to the people around me. It's rooted in confidence. The feeling that you must trick people or give them something to get a certain response or get them to submit to you, is rooted insecurity and guilt. Talk to your shrink about these.
      I didn't get around to it. Today we talked about the hairdresser and he seems to think she's interested but that I need to call her or something.

      I'm so confused as to what to do.

      Also, you say I don't need to trick women into liking me, but then you guys say I have to text a certain way (which is not how I ever text, ever) and other things like that so that's where I get that idea from.

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      LOL! Good luck with that. The "any woman" part. See, thinking that way, that you can annihilate people's free will, leads to guilt and takes away from the magic of seduction.
      Hmm, k?

      It's an idea, not a tangible (expected) goal. Besides, what is free will? If I act one way (like text a certain way) a woman doesn't want me, but if I act another way she suddenly does. Is that removing her free will or mine?

      But I digress...

      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      And then there is always chloroform
      Shit! I forgot about chloroform! Thanks man! You're the best!!!



      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      But enough with the theory. You are doing well. Your online banter is getting better, more flirty.
      More "tricky" imo. But I digress...



      Originally posted by Sase View Post
      Keep going. Meanwhile there is a hairdresser waiting to get laid... I'm sure she's not offended by your desire for her. She might fuck you or she might not but I'm sure she enjoys any attention you give her (so far.)
      Yeah I need to make a move on her again.

      What should I do?

      I saw her last friday for my hair cut. She seemed normal, a little less ioi's but she could be trying to hide it as she's mentioned she doesn't want people knowing about us because of the age difference. Whatever, that doesn't bother me.

      Anyhow I'm wondering what I should do. Should I text her? Call her? Set up a date for her next day off and try for sex again? I just don't know.

      Either way, thanks again for your insight, this is pure gold for me right now.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
        ...
        https://s19.postimg.org/py92cizgj/Sc...6_07_51_25.png

        I was following some advice from on here but it just seems wrong, and obviously she didn't respond too well.
        Yeah, that text, I'm not sure how it's gamey. I would have jumped on her typo and would have responded "Yeah, I wasn't sure if you meant Kegels ? or the beer?" Or I would have made a remark about her legs: "yes, I was thinking of your legs today." "I miss caressing this one special spot." "I'll have to show you next time.". FFS, you got her talking about her legs and then you said "Fun stuff. Keep to that schedule like a boss." WTF, man?!
        OK, I'll stop chastising you about your text. LOL. You made the point enough many times that texting is not your favorite and all this shoulda-coulda advice is not helping.

        Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
        ...
        I hope she's disappointed enough to continue seeing me...
        ...
        Shit! I forgot about chloroform! Thanks man! You're the best!!!

        "
        See, that's funny. Even if it's sarcasm, it's the lighter, more unexpected way of communication. It is no less genuine than other parts of you.

        Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
        Ok, but I still have to have funny text convos? Cause that's not genuine for me at all.
        See above.

        Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
        Kind of makes sense. I mean, when I was Pepe Le Pew-ing her on date 3, every time she said no I'd back off, till eventually I was doing nothing. I haven't texted her since she didn't reply to my last one, and when I saw her for my haircut last friday, things were normal between us and I wasn't crazy or clingy or anything.
        If by normal you mean she cut your hair, you paid her and walked out without flirting or showing attraction, than that's pretty bad. You are so focussed on yourself (not being "crazy or clingy or anything") that you forget to consider her world. She probably felt old and rejected. If you acted cold and indifferent that is.

        But, god help me, I do love to be like Pepe, but only if she likes it, if that makes sense.
        ...
        So how can I be "tongue in cheek" like you say?
        Sounds like you were doing fine with that part. By pulling away when rejected. Be able to laugh inwardly at playing Pepe. She was asking for more kisses before you left, if I remember well.



        No worries.



        I didn't get around to it. Today we talked about the hairdresser and he seems to think she's interested but that I need to call her or something.

        I'm so confused as to what to do.

        ....
        Yeah I need to make a move on her again.

        What should I do?
        You don't "need" to anything. You want to call her, so call her. Let her know you've been thinking of her. You could tell her that she awoke something in you. That you felt something with her, something you like and which you'd like to explore more. If it was me I would make it a game to tell her in veiled terms about my situation (i.e. being a virgin who's trying to get in her pants.) For mystery's sake (the noun, not the man.)
        Or just call her to check on her and listen to her. Quick hint: don't just ask what she did or what she thinks about something, you seem to be most comfortable with thoughts and actions. Ask her and listen to how she feels about things.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          Yeah, that text, I'm not sure how it's gamey. I would have jumped on her typo and would have responded "Yeah, I wasn't sure if you meant Kegels ? or the beer?" Or I would have made a remark about her legs: "yes, I was thinking of your legs today." "I miss caressing this one special spot." "I'll have to show you next time.". FFS, you got her talking about her legs and then you said "Fun stuff. Keep to that schedule like a boss." WTF, man?!
          OK, I'll stop chastising you about your text. LOL. You made the point enough many times that texting is not your favorite and all this shoulda-coulda advice is not helping.
          Yeah, this is what I mean. Lol. I just don't think like that. When we're talking about the gym and she says it's leg day, I think squats, pain, how difficult she's mentioned it was for her, etc. I also remember her saying she has a gym schedule but it's hard for her to keep it, so I'm being encouraging. So, WTF back at ya lol. I thought I was doing what I'm supposed to.

          This is what I'm talking about with the whole "genuineness vs. PUA" because me talking like how your suggesting would not be genuine, it would be PUA. Make sense?


          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          See, that's funny. Even if it's sarcasm, it's the lighter, more unexpected way of communication. It is no less genuine than other parts of you.


          See above.
          Hmm, ok. I've heard you shouldn't be sarcastic with girls but ok.


          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          If by normal you mean she cut your hair, you paid her and walked out without flirting or showing attraction, than that's pretty bad. You are so focussed on yourself (not being "crazy or clingy or anything") that you forget to consider her world. She probably felt old and rejected. If you acted cold and indifferent that is.
          NO, by normal I mean we talked, had some laughs, there were a few hair flips and armpit displays, and then when I went to the front desk we chatted some more, then I left.

          I don't want to show too much attraction because she's afraid of what people would think of her with a younger guy.

          That's normal (i.e., what we normally do during the hair cut)

          I don't want her to feel old and rejected but come on man! I tried to f*ck her a few nights ago, you really think she feels rejected??!?

          You're not making any sense. Seems more like (if anything) she's rejecting me.


          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          Sounds like you were doing fine with that part. By pulling away when rejected. Be able to laugh inwardly at playing Pepe. She was asking for more kisses before you left, if I remember well.



          No worries.
          Yes, she was. We made out quite explosively before I left.



          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          You don't "need" to anything. You want to call her, so call her.
          I don't want to call her, I want to set up another date at her place.


          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          Let her know you've been thinking of her. You could tell her that she awoke something in you. That you felt something with her, something you like and which you'd like to explore more. If it was me I would make it a game to tell her in veiled terms about my situation (i.e. being a virgin who's trying to get in her pants.) For mystery's sake (the noun, not the man.)
          Hmm, how do I do that?

          Originally posted by Sase View Post
          Or just call her to check on her and listen to her. Quick hint: don't just ask what she did or what she thinks about something, you seem to be most comfortable with thoughts and actions. Ask her and listen to how she feels about things.
          Can I ask her how her week is going?

          Also, I don't have a problem with listening, but I'd rather do it in person.

          EDIT: Found a cool lounge tonight. Maybe I should suggest me and the hairdresser go there? The upside is we could do it during the week and keep it short and sweet. We could pay for our own drinks but the idea is that I don't come across as not caring by just going straight for her house (i.e. pussy)

          Although, if I'm being genuine, I WOULD prefer to get straight to it. I like her as a person, I just don't think that needs to be exclusive to wanting to sleep with her. Why can't it be both?

          So, like, couldn't I just say something like "hey, let's hang out this sunday. I'll bring some wine"?

          I dunno, I can see arguments for both.

          EDIT 2: Btw, if I need to have funny texts and I need to call the hairdresser and stuff, that's fine, but it won't be genuine.
          Last edited by SargeMaximus; 01-17-2017, 10:39 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            I still would like some clarification of the above concerns.

            However, I just read Bacchus' post about his "game" and what he does. It was very interesting to read. I'm just wondering if it's fundamental stuff that NEEDS to be present, or if it's his style.

            For example: he talks about sexual framing, introducing feelings of liberation and freedom and emotionally relating to her as well as providing a safe space, but most of this takes place in conversation. I'm wondering if (using mirror neurons) this can be done with vibe?

            I'm wondering because, one of the things I'm noticing is that I'm good with women in person (to some degree, obviously not great enough to get laid lol) but not in text. Text is verbal, and I wonder if my vibe is solid but my verbals are shit.

            OR, I'm wondering if I can somehow rely on my vibe more and less on the verbals?

            I get a lot of looks from girls, and tonight, for example, a cute waitress brought me my food who wasn't my server. It was an obvious approach (she had smiled at me minutes prior) and yet I didn't do anything with her because I was there with my cousin, but that's not the point.

            I'm not sure exactly what my point is, I'm pretty much just throwing shit at the wall, but since I recognize my verbal and text game to be lacking, I wonder how I can overcome that in a way that is genuine, congruent, and still attractive/not off-putting.
            And I dunno, reading Bacchus' posts make me realize that this shit can be done FAST so I feel like I'm a snail of sorts and am obviously missing some things.

            EDIT: Another thing I should mention is that I'm getting close to understanding things in relation to "assume attraction".

            I think one of the biggest obstacles for me is how to interact with a girl in a way that assumes attraction.

            I think I'm coming at Pick-Up as one who must create, escalate, and build the relationship from scratch, while I think the proper way to go about it is to let the relationship "unfold" without exploding.

            Still, I'm unsure how that can be done in regards to being genuine, when parts of me seem to be pro-"building-from-scratch" (i.e. my Pepe Le Pew desires).

            It's a cusp I feel I'm on the edge of tho.

            Perhaps seduction isn't seduction so much as it is recognizing a woman's cues and acting on them?

            Either way, I'm so grateful for this forum and those who have helped me, past and present. It's all coming together and I'm seeing some tangible results.

            Comment


            • #51
              learn to use good delivery ...the 5 p's pitch (how low or high your voice gets) passion(enthusiasm level) pace (speak slow) pauses(throw them in there to reel the group or girl in) prolonging (drag out a part of your story or opener or what not to really suck the girl or group in ) and projection(speak loud enough for them to stop or hear you and not turn away etc!

              Comment


              • #52
                Went out tonight to approach but had the worst anxiety I've ever had. I felt like I was going to lose consciousness.

                I did go to 4 places but I only saw 2 girls. Didn't approach either of them.

                The first one was in a bookstore at the very end of the book aisle. I felt too many people were around. This is my major sticking point as far as approaching is concerned. I prefer girls that are alone, with no one around. As soon as other people are around I get anxious and worry what they will do/think and what will happen to me.

                The second was in a Best Buy looking at movies. I went to go approach her but she turned around and looked right at me. This freaked me out and I quickly looked away and kept walking.

                Sorry guys.

                Comment


                • #53
                  think improving your skillset and not trying to land any particular girl bro, work on your delivery with any girl fat old etc.....just get an opener out there and the delivery down, Now with that opener teev gave you , the option of saying that to an old lady or a really ugly girl is weird . Use an indirect opener and work on the delivery, until it is down.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post
                    Sorry guys.
                    I love you because you are honest (in a way I could never be).

                    You are not afraid to look like the fool you are (and I am, and most people here are).

                    Being open like that stops this public forum from dropping into a stalemate.

                    Never be sorry.

                    Here goes:

                    I never ever get that kind of anxiety anymore. I used to be the worst. I could not ask a girl for directions to the restroom.

                    It is OK to fail miserably.

                    The simplest way to get good at daygaming is to do the simple stuff that succeeds most often and ramp up from there. That means you start off where people would have to be rude to not respond.

                    "Are you always this friendly with people who just ask where the Big Ben is?" And you cut them loose. Then you see a pattern. It is always about allowing yourself to see patterns.

                    The simple opener which has people being their helpful self will show you how you can be a better and relevant you.

                    Opening:

                    There is a trick to opening in day game. You need to stand still while they are walking. You need to not turn. You need to raise your hand.

                    These things will not make sense until you do them.
                    iGNITE Mobile Dating: The Definite Guide to Meeting Girls using Tinder and Snapchat
                    PM me for a free, no strings attached copy.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by COCPORN View Post
                      I love you because you are honest (in a way I could never be).

                      You are not afraid to look like the fool you are (and I am, and most people here are).
                      Thank you.

                      "Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself." - Charlie Chaplin.


                      Originally posted by COCPORN View Post

                      Being open like that stops this public forum from dropping into a stalemate.

                      Never be sorry.
                      Fair enough. But I am sorry for not holding myself to what I promised I would do. That is not right.

                      Also, I'm sorry that I've degraded back to the beginning of pick-up. I used to be able to approach easily, now it seems it's all been lost.


                      Originally posted by COCPORN View Post
                      Here goes:

                      I never ever get that kind of anxiety anymore. I used to be the worst. I could not ask a girl for directions to the restroom.

                      It is OK to fail miserably.

                      The simplest way to get good at daygaming is to do the simple stuff that succeeds most often and ramp up from there. That means you start off where people would have to be rude to not respond.

                      "Are you always this friendly with people who just ask where the Big Ben is?" And you cut them loose. Then you see a pattern. It is always about allowing yourself to see patterns.

                      The simple opener which has people being their helpful self will show you how you can be a better and relevant you.
                      Yes I agree. When I first started daygame I was also terrified of asking a woman for directions. When I finally did (my cousin picked her for me, and she was gorgeous) I asked her where a gas station was and she started giving me ioi's and was interested in me. I prolly could have gotten her number. So I definitely agree with you.

                      Are you suggesting I start with that instead of an opener?


                      Originally posted by COCPORN View Post

                      Opening:

                      There is a trick to opening in day game. You need to stand still while they are walking. You need to not turn. You need to raise your hand.

                      These things will not make sense until you do them.
                      K thanks. I'll try this next time.

                      I intend to go out tomorrow to do more approaches. I think the less rules I hold myself to the better.

                      I was kind of putting too much pressure on myself by making it "only evening" approaches.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Impulse View Post
                        Sarge, do a search for Dr Bercelli on this forum - he's the founder of TRE - its very popular here and helps with things like anxiety, approaching, conversation

                        Im using it and it definitely works..could help you out a little
                        Yeah I did TRE for a while in the summer actually. Definitely seemed to help a bit.

                        _____________________________________________

                        So I went out tonight and once again couldn't approach. There were 5 girls I wanted (6 if you count one who I locked eyes with as she went into a bathroom) but ultimately I couldn't do it.

                        I'm having a hard time between being congruent and trying new things (which I automatically assume won't work because they won't be congruent).

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Thanks Impulse. I know a lot of it is in fact psychology (for example, when I was going out with my hairdresser, I was doing better online as well, so there's definitely something to that). I even have a radical idea that I'm not sure many on here will take well but the more experiences I get, the more it seems to be "true". And it has to do with how I was succeeding with my hairdresser till I came on here asking for help and made some changes. I believe the changes created an incongruence and lost her. That is why I'm terrified of coming across as incongruent now, because I think that, more than anything, loses the girl probably 90% of the time. Has nothing to do with "beta/alpha" or anything like that, just the congruence.

                          If a girl knows who you are (even if you're "beta") she'll sleep with you if you're discreet and attractive and can relate to her.

                          That's my latest theory. Because I didn't do anything but listen to her talk. No lines, no jokes, no nothing, and yet on the forum people are telling me to say lines and I'm thinking "but, I didn't need lines to get my hairdresser".

                          And another thing: how come when I "improve" my game, I always start getting less results with women? Could it be that "improving" your game is an almost reverse psychology thing where you suddenly are amplifying the fact that you need improvement? Does that make sense?

                          I don't know, and I don't want to get KJ (especially since I haven't approached lately) but I do think that there is something to that.

                          I remember one of my last approaches was simple talking. No lines,. I just said "hi, how are you?" she says "good, how are you?" and I'm like "I'm good. What's up?" and we talked, eventually I'm like "Wanna grab a coffee?" and she's like "I haven't showered" so you see! She was thinking of sex with me and I was just having a boring conversation with her.

                          Same with the other day at the gym, a girl who works there always scans my membership. Well the other day I start making small talk with her. We talk about the compouter and how it's slow. And I'm like "yeah, I hate that. stupid computers" and she WINKS at me!

                          NO lines! NO humor! Just relating to her and being chill.

                          I dunno, I think I need to just learn to approach women and have NORMAL/boring convos, then have 2 dates as per PureEvil's model, then RAMP UP the escalation on date 3.

                          That's what I think I need to do. And yeah, have the right mentality like you say.

                          I'm gonna try it tomorrow. Even if I can't approach, I'll at least go out like I have been.

                          EDIT: Oh and I hope you don't mind, but you say you've been at this for 10 years... I assume you're getting laid, yes?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I don't know man, one thing doesn't make sense to me, and it's this: if all you needed was this mindset, how come you've gotten laid WITHOUT it? In my mind that shows me there is some other factor, and having that mindset isn't the real deal.
                            Anyhow, today I'ma try to get into boring convos with girls and see how it goes lol.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I see...

                              There is one more thing that is keeping me from buying into your theory fully, and that is this:

                              When I went for the kiss the first time with my hairdresser, I 100% did NOT believe I was going to get it. Not even close. I went for it because it's just what I was supposed to do. Not because I believed it would happen.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Impulse View Post
                                What you do in actions is what your actual belief is in that moment.

                                It doesnt matter what beliefs you have "on the surface level" and what you thought, or what you think on the surface level - its whats happening in the subconscious and deep inside and outside your awareness that matters

                                Also if you were vibing with the girl correctly, thats opening up a part of you (deep inside) that allows you to connect with the girl..which is why you found it easier to actually go for the makeout and find it congruent in that moment

                                ------

                                What this tells me is that you already have the natural qualities to be a natural seducer - because you were capable of going for the makeout. It tells me that there is a part of you that is a natural seducer and it just needs to be opened up..instead of being repressed

                                All of us are natural seducers - when we open that part up. Its about re-connecting to that truth again, and allowing you to act based on that truth..instead of other ones

                                Which is why the alternative childhood is so darn effective
                                Fair enough. I'll see how things go today. Oddly women have stopped responding to me online despite me using the exact, word-for-word opener I was using last week and getting numbers so there's definitely something to that magical stuff.
                                For the alternative childhood do you just think about it or what?

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