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  • Went on a messaging spree today on POF. I am listening to SMMA "Social Frame" audio so all this is inspired by that and trying to keep from falling into the girl's frame. It's exhausting.

    I'm not one to come back with witty one-liners so if there's a way to just ignore it and change the subject without saying some one-liner first, that'd be great. Anyone know if that's a thing that works? Can you just ignore the power plays and get on with the seduction or do you HAVE to do the one liners? I'm also finding it hard to escalate.

    Anyhow, as for POF, there are more attractive women on there, but more testy behavior. Here are a few main examples:

    Girl 1:

    Me: Mmm, you look like trouble

    Her: What makes you say that?

    Me: Awesome! You seem adventurous. I like. yes I’ve been around. States mostly. If you won the lottery tomorrow where would you take me?

    Her: I try to be adventurous, haha.

    Her: Where would I take you? Haha, pretty confident over there, hey?

    Me: Yeah but you like it

    Me: So where would you take me?

    Her: Haha, nowhere.

    Me: Hint: Brazil

    Her: Why do you want to go there?

    Me: Hot weather. How was Central America?

    Her: It was great, it’s gorgeous and the people are friendly (in most places).

    Me: Awesome. Yeah what I like about travelling is you can sort of be whoever you want to be because no one really knows you there, do you find that too?

    Her: Um, for me not really. I feel more myself when I’m traveling. I find it kind of strips you down to your core - at least the solo traveling I’ve been doing I’ve found that.

    Me: Yeah that's what I mean, you can be who you want because there's no image to live up to and no one judging you by some standard. And I've heard that Brazil is a lot more liberal than Canada in many ways as well. I imagine Central America is the same. Was that your experience?

    Her: In what ways do you think it's more liberal?
    I've been to two countries in CA. One was very conservative and religious and the other was like America jr.

    Me: That's crazy! How did you keep your sanity?

    Her: Drinking of course.

    Me: Love it! Speaking of which, I have this Tuesday off. Let's meet up

    Her: I've already got plans this Tuesday evening. What do you do for work?

    Me: Take a wild guess

    Her: I'm not great at guessing. Insurance salesman.

    Me: That's close actually, I am in sales. How much can you drink on average?

    Comment


    • And Girl 2 (apologies for the formatting fuckup, these are copied and pasted from pof):
      Me: You look like trouble
      Her: Haha. Damn I thought I picked pictures that made me look more angelic than trouble! lol
      Me: No such luck so tell me, what sets you apart from other girls?
      Her: Im one of a kind. There is no comparison
      Me: What makes you say that?
      Her: Everyone is one of a kind. So whats your story?
      Me: True. But there must be something otherwise why shouldnt I just date another girl?
      Her: Maybe you should. Im not particularly interested in selling myself to a complete stranger.
      Me: So you're feisty, that's one thing. What's another?
      Her:
      I think its your turn...why would a girl want to date you?
      Me: Aside from my charm and adventurous personality?
      Her:
      Tell me more about the adventurous personality? I randomly went to China last week to see the Great Wall.
      Me: Did you really? That's epic! I don't know if I should tell you tho, you never told me what else sets you apart from other grls...
      Her:
      Theres a lot of amazing women out there! Youll know what sets me apart if your lucky enough to ever meet me.
      Me: I'm not sure "lucky" is the word I'd use. "Unfortunate" seems like a better one
      Her:
      No point in chatting any more than!
      Me: Unless you have some redeeming quality
      Her: Nope. Nothing.

      EDIT: This girl ended up blocking me. I found out because I was going to reply to her with "So... read any good books lately?" as a means of not falling into her frame (because even her saying "Nope. Nothing." is a frame isn't it?) but when I went to reply I noticed the convo was gone.

      Comment


      • Your opening strategy seems to work pretty well. In this last conversation, the problem was that after opening and getting her to hook a little bit, you kept pushing the same button (requiring her to impress you). For example she said "Im not particularly interested in selling myself to a complete stranger." I could sense the irritation there.

        Then you said you have a charming and adventurous personality. That was a good moment, and she gave you an easy way to change the topic and show something else about yourself by asking about it. So she was still somewhat into the conversation. I would have recommended something like "Oh that's cool. Have you travelled a lot?"

        This way you could keep the very useful frame of making her qualify to you, while still pursuing a fresh and nice topic. Do you see what I mean?

        Also you can use another smiley. The repetition of the winky smiley and the very similar wording in your repeated requests for qualification make her feel like you are insensitively applying a technique on her, without concern for her experience or personality. And it looks fake.

        As a final very important point; it's good to challenge the girl, BUT, she has to have some reason to want to impress you. So you need to show her a little bit of yourself AND challenge her. Here you were only challenging, while withholding any information about yourself. It's a balance, like everything else. I hope that helps

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
          Your opening strategy seems to work pretty well. In this last conversation, the problem was that after opening and getting her to hook a little bit, you kept pushing the same button (requiring her to impress you). For example she said "Im not particularly interested in selling myself to a complete stranger." I could sense the irritation there.
          Yes but I thought I wasn't supposed to care what the girl thought/not take her seriously/make her qualify.


          Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
          Then you said you have a charming and adventurous personality. That was a good moment, and she gave you an easy way to change the topic and show something else about yourself by asking about it. So she was still somewhat into the conversation. I would have recommended something like "Oh that's cool. Have you travelled a lot?"
          Wouldn't that be letting her lead the interaction?


          Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
          This way you could keep the very useful frame of making her qualify to you, while still pursuing a fresh and nice topic. Do you see what I mean?
          Yes but see above.


          Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
          Also you can use another smiley. The repetition of the winky smiley and the very similar wording in your repeated requests for qualification make her feel like you are insensitively applying a technique on her, without concern for her experience or personality. And it looks fake.

          As a final very important point; it's good to challenge the girl, BUT, she has to have some reason to want to impress you. So you need to show her a little bit of yourself AND challenge her. Here you were only challenging, while withholding any information about yourself. It's a balance, like everything else. I hope that helps
          So I need to qualify to her now? WTF? lol. Sorry, this all makes no sense to me. :/

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
            Your opening strategy seems to work pretty well. In this last conversation, the problem was that after opening and getting her to hook a little bit, you kept pushing the same button (requiring her to impress you). For example she said "Im not particularly interested in selling myself to a complete stranger." I could sense the irritation there.

            Then you said you have a charming and adventurous personality. That was a good moment, and she gave you an easy way to change the topic and show something else about yourself by asking about it. So she was still somewhat into the conversation. I would have recommended something like "Oh that's cool. Have you travelled a lot?"

            This way you could keep the very useful frame of making her qualify to you, while still pursuing a fresh and nice topic. Do you see what I mean?

            Also you can use another smiley. The repetition of the winky smiley and the very similar wording in your repeated requests for qualification make her feel like you are insensitively applying a technique on her, without concern for her experience or personality. And it looks fake.

            As a final very important point; it's good to challenge the girl, BUT, she has to have some reason to want to impress you. So you need to show her a little bit of yourself AND challenge her. Here you were only challenging, while withholding any information about yourself. It's a balance, like everything else. I hope that helps
            Sarge, this is an excellent analysis. Pay particular attention to the sections I bolded in the quote - these are some of your worst sticking points.You need to go with the flow more, and stop,insisting she follow your script.

            If you try too hard to control the conversation, you blow yourself out. (I know, I know - other people talk how about you have to lead and dominate, and I dont necessarily disagree, though its not my style. But you are doing it wrong, and coming across as controlling and insensitive)

            But your worst fuckup was when you said it would be unfortunate if you met her...its no wonder she blocked you. It came across as rude, insulting, and arrogant Would you say something like that to one of your sales prospects?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by No More Mr Nice Guy View Post

              Sarge, this is an excellent analysis. Pay particular attention to the sections I bolded in the quote - these are some of your worst sticking points.You need to go with the flow more, and stop,insisting she follow your script.

              If you try too hard to control the conversation, you blow yourself out. (I know, I know - other people talk how about you have to lead and dominate, and I dont necessarily disagree, though its not my style. But you are doing it wrong, and coming across as controlling and insensitive)

              But your worst fuckup was when you said it would be unfortunate if you met her...its no wonder she blocked you. It came across as rude, insulting, and arrogant Would you say something like that to one of your sales prospects?
              Well, for going with the flow, I hear what youre saying. The issue is thats what I was doing before to not much results.

              as for the insult, it was an attempt to not fall into her frame and a tease at the same time. I knew it was the wrong move but felt it was the only option since the frame she presented was so solid.

              i would prefer not to do this kind of shit at all, but like I said, what I have been doing isnt working. Perhaps I just dont understand how all this works yet and how to talk to women..

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post

                Yes but I thought I wasn't supposed to care what the girl thought/not take her seriously/make her qualify.
                Those are useful ways of thinking. But also: you should never be doing one thing 100% of the time. In game, there is for most principles a situation where the counterprinciple is true. I'm sure are seeing this

                More practical: there was clear irritation on her part. So in that situation you have two indicators available: what you have learned from others (you are supposed to not care, etc...) and what the situation is telling you (the girl is giving you a too blunt answer). The indicators are pointing in opposite directions. You already showed her that you can ask for qualification, now you can do something else.

                Are you familiar with the concept of a model in natural sciences?

                Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post

                Wouldn't that be letting her lead the interaction?

                Yes but see above.
                Theoretically you could say that. However, in this situation, that would be a small price to pay. By persisting with your behavior, which was annoying her, you paid a massive price. See, nothing ever happens perfectly. Why do you think a car engine or a bicycle's chain wear out? Because there can never be a system or a machine that runs with no friction.

                Sometimes women give us helpful hints, and it's not about the frame. That's good because you can take the hint and so redirect the interaction in a mutually beneficial way, without allowing it to look like she was leading.



                Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post

                So I need to qualify to her now? WTF? lol. Sorry, this all makes no sense to me. :/
                Same issue as the first point I addressed. Sometimes the qualifying model applies, sometimes it doesn't describe what's going on very well.

                Try this. Imagine the situation from her end. Forget that she's a woman, just consider it from the perspective of another person.

                Someone, who you just talked to for the first time, makes a demand. You politely try to steer the conversation away and give the person a chance. They keep insisting on that same thing, without offering anything in return. How would you respond?

                You may think, if it was an attractive girl on a dating site, I would keep talking to them! BUT. In your situation, she did not yet know whether you are attractive or not. You had not displayed any attractive qualities. Qualifying can be one, but there must be something to back it up. Otherwise it's like a fighter posturing, but refusing to go into the ring.

                So again: it doesn't make sense to you, because it contradicts the idea that you must make her qualify herself to you. But that's just a model. Sometimes you have to drop the model and use another one.

                How many girls are responding to you? I'm asking because I recently started regular daygaming, and I noticed the large volume has allowed me to try new things very freely.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post

                  Those are useful ways of thinking. But also: you should never be doing one thing 100% of the time. In game, there is for most principles a situation where the counterprinciple is true. I'm sure are seeing this

                  More practical: there was clear irritation on her part. So in that situation you have two indicators available: what you have learned from others (you are supposed to not care, etc...) and what the situation is telling you (the girl is giving you a too blunt answer). The indicators are pointing in opposite directions. You already showed her that you can ask for qualification, now you can do something else.

                  Are you familiar with the concept of a model in natural sciences?



                  Theoretically you could say that. However, in this situation, that would be a small price to pay. By persisting with your behavior, which was annoying her, you paid a massive price. See, nothing ever happens perfectly. Why do you think a car engine or a bicycle's chain wear out? Because there can never be a system or a machine that runs with no friction.

                  Sometimes women give us helpful hints, and it's not about the frame. That's good because you can take the hint and so redirect the interaction in a mutually beneficial way, without allowing it to look like she was leading.





                  Same issue as the first point I addressed. Sometimes the qualifying model applies, sometimes it doesn't describe what's going on very well.

                  Try this. Imagine the situation from her end. Forget that she's a woman, just consider it from the perspective of another person.

                  Someone, who you just talked to for the first time, makes a demand. You politely try to steer the conversation away and give the person a chance. They keep insisting on that same thing, without offering anything in return. How would you respond?

                  You may think, if it was an attractive girl on a dating site, I would keep talking to them! BUT. In your situation, she did not yet know whether you are attractive or not. You had not displayed any attractive qualities. Qualifying can be one, but there must be something to back it up. Otherwise it's like a fighter posturing, but refusing to go into the ring.

                  So again: it doesn't make sense to you, because it contradicts the idea that you must make her qualify herself to you. But that's just a model. Sometimes you have to drop the model and use another one.

                  How many girls are responding to you? I'm asking because I recently started regular daygaming, and I noticed the large volume has allowed me to try new things very freely.
                  I see.

                  I should be displaying attractive behaviour instead of qualifying. See, I thought qualifying a girl was an attractive behaviour. Why would you do it at all then?

                  i dont want to be doing things unless they are moving things forward and attracting the girl. IMO, things that dont do that have no place in game. Seriously, why qualify at all then?

                  anyhow, yeah lots of girls are responding, but most say something like: me??! No, Im not trouble at all lol

                  i have ave no idea how to respond to those.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post

                    I see.

                    I should be displaying attractive behaviour instead of qualifying. See, I thought qualifying a girl was an attractive behaviour. Why would you do it at all then?
                    Hold your horses, SargeMaximus. I said: "you should never be doing one thing 100% of the time"

                    To which you said: "I should be displaying attractive behaviour instead of qualifying"

                    This sounds to me like you will swing the pendulum from 100% left all the way 100% to the right. Dropping qualifying entirely in order to display attractive qualities only, would be a mistake. Because like I pointed out in my first reply, your opening strategy works! I was merely telling you what you could have done differently in the last interaction, which I hope will serve you in the future.

                    Also: when you say that you are going to display attractive qualities, I'm a little concerned. I hope you don't mean you are going to try to display high value? That weapon is dangerous to an unskilled user. What I meant in my original advice was not that. Rather, just show SOME personality. For example, express one opinion, or mention one place you have travelled to. It doesn't have to be attractive or high value... rather it is the readiness to share that makes you attractive. In these very early stages, that's all it takes. Can you see the difference? If you could explain it back to me in your own words, I would know whether we are on the same page.

                    Originally posted by SargeMaximus View Post

                    anyhow, yeah lots of girls are responding, but most say something like: me??! No, Im not trouble at all lol

                    i have ave no idea how to respond to those.
                    That's really good. You have something to work with then. This science was created by men who were in similar situations, but they didn't have a forum to consult. They had to think up something that COULD work as a response, and then trying it and seeing what happened.

                    Can you come up with two or three possible responses to that?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post

                      Hold your horses, SargeMaximus. I said: "you should never be doing one thing 100% of the time"

                      To which you said: "I should be displaying attractive behaviour instead of qualifying"

                      This sounds to me like you will swing the pendulum from 100% left all the way 100% to the right. Dropping qualifying entirely in order to display attractive qualities only, would be a mistake. Because like I pointed out in my first reply, your opening strategy works! I was merely telling you what you could have done differently in the last interaction, which I hope will serve you in the future.

                      Also: when you say that you are going to display attractive qualities, I'm a little concerned. I hope you don't mean you are going to try to display high value? That weapon is dangerous to an unskilled user. What I meant in my original advice was not that. Rather, just show SOME personality. For example, express one opinion, or mention one place you have travelled to. It doesn't have to be attractive or high value... rather it is the readiness to share that makes you attractive. In these very early stages, that's all it takes. Can you see the difference? If you could explain it back to me in your own words, I would know whether we are on the same page.
                      Here's the problem: how do I know you know your shit? You only have 77 posts and I've not heard of you.

                      This forum definitely needs some kind of system in place where credible PUA's are known... no offense.

                      Originally posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post

                      That's really good. You have something to work with then. This science was created by men who were in similar situations, but they didn't have a forum to consult. They had to think up something that COULD work as a response, and then trying it and seeing what happened.

                      Can you come up with two or three possible responses to that?
                      I don't come to a forum for PUA to do things that men without a forum would do.

                      Comment


                      • First online flake/180:

                        Me: You look like trouble

                        Her:

                        Ahaha, I get that comment quite often

                        Me: Really? how much trouble can I expect from you?

                        Her:

                        Depends what u call trouble

                        Me: True. How adventurous are you?

                        Her:

                        Somewhat adventurous!

                        Me: Nice, done any travelling?

                        Her:

                        Yes a lot. But I travel fancy. No airbnb no bag packs! Not for me.

                        Me: Love it! Yolo right? Wheres your favourite place to go?

                        Her:

                        Yolo? Whats that? I wanna go to Greece next or Dominican Republic

                        Me: You only live once. Great idea, youre taking me btw what are you most likely to get mad at the stewardess for on the flight there?

                        Her:

                        Umm never got super mad actually! They do a hard job, I try to take it easy on them... Im taking u where? What does that supposed to mean ?

                        Me: yeah they do. I love that youre so caring. But yeah lets go to the Dominican! We can lay in the sun all day and party all night!

                        Her:

                        Sounds like a plan a Fun plan lol

                        Me: Agreed. Btw, I have this next Tuesday off, let's grab a drink!

                        Her:

                        Im off on Tuesday too , sounds ok

                        Me: Sweet! What part of the city are you in?

                        Her: [Area], where u at?

                        Me: Im just [location]. Let's meet at the [place and time] sound cool?

                        Her:

                        Sure

                        Me: Cool. See you there

                        Her:

                        Ok

                        Her:

                        Hello, I may sound a little off but all the time I was chatting with u I thought its someone else that Im interested in him and I was so tired not to tell it’s someone else!!!
                        Please forgive me and forget about our conversation. Cheers


                        Comment


                        • WFT is going on... women seem to take offense to this. I've had 2 convos where women seem downright offended by my line (POB's golden line btw!) so yeah, WTF. Pob? Are you around? Insight please!
                          Me: Mm, you look like trouble
                          Her:
                          Haven't you been taught that looks can be deceiving?
                          Me: Are you saying your not trouble?
                          Her:
                          Correct also saying not interested. All the best in your search for whatever it may be.




                          EDIT:


                          Same thing here:


                          Me: Mm, you look like trouble

                          Her:

                          Ew

                          Me: Lol, you had to reply just to say that?

                          Her:

                          Yes.

                          Me: Why?

                          Her:

                          Because why would that be the first thing you say to me?

                          Her:

                          If i guy is going to message me something insulting or degrading or stupid, im going to reply with "ew" or "gross" or my favorite one for the real ugly guys who are sooooo rude, " you just make me puke in my mouth".

                          Her:



                          Me: I see, well thank you for sharing your perspective. Happy fishing!

                          Her:

                          Thanks you too.

                          Comment


                          • "POB's golden line btw!"

                            Quick corretion: I don't have a "golden line"
                            BTW this "Look like trouble" is not even mine!!!
                            You should check stuff before gluing labels and crediting people man.

                            - what are the age of those last two chicks? (beting my left testicle they're over 30)
                            - change approach on the fly if your first line does not strike her

                            Mmm, you look like trouble
                            Her:Ew
                            Finally found someone who does not like that line!
                            Maybe there's hope for me here (praying emoji)

                            Mmm, you look like trouble
                            Her: Haven't you been taught that looks can be deceiving?
                            Yeah, they can.
                            But it goes both ways you know
                            Now tell me, are you adventurous? (start your travel convo)

                            BTW, did you follow my advice on restricting your age range?

                            Comment


                            • SargeMaximus

                              SargeMaximus

                              commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Yeah I'm going for younger girls now POB, but I want to be able to get the women I'm attracted to. It defeats the whole purpose of game to only go for a certain age range. :/

                              But thanks for the tips, I will try them out.

                          • such a weak opener, usually used with younger women for dtf game on tinder... My suspicion is you are using on regular dating sites and that is not how you open...

                            Hi you seem different from most other women on here... I am sarge

                            I read your profile, and it would never work between us! We would have to much fun together. I am sarge

                            Comment


                            • SargeMaximus

                              SargeMaximus

                              commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I did not know this! Thanks Skills!

                          • Latest convos using Skills' opener from above:

                            Girl 1:

                            Me: Hi you seem different from most other women on here... I'm Sarge

                            Her:

                            Ifm sorry, I already have someone in mind

                            Me: Yeah me too




                            Girl 2:
                            Me: Hi you seem different from most other women on here... I'm Sarge

                            Her:

                            I'm [Name] goes it going

                            Me: Hi [Name]. Going good. What would you say sets you apart from all the other girls on here?

                            Her:

                            I don't go out and party all the time

                            Me: Just some of the time eh? cool. Done any travelling?

                            Girl 3:

                            Me: Hi you seem different from most other women on here... I am Sarge

                            Her:

                            How different

                            Me: Itfs just a vibe. Have you done any travelling?

                            Her:

                            Describe the vibe pls. Some.

                            Me: Like adventurous. Where have you been?

                            Her:

                            Really. Hmm. Interesting. Just Canada. How about uH

                            Me: Ifve been all over the states. Where are you from?

                            Her:

                            I c. How is StatesH

                            Me: Itfs fun. I love travelling and having adventures. Are you from around here?


                            Girl 4:

                            Me: Hi you seem different from most other women on here... I am Sarge

                            Her:

                            Thatfs cause I am different. Why would I wanna be just like everyone else out there. Lol. Besides I donft give a shit what anyone thinks about me lol. They are just jelly. Lmfao.

                            Me: Wow! I love your energy! Very liberated. Are you adventurous too?

                            Girl 5:


                            Comment

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