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Advice for Newbees - Great reading materials.

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  • Advice for Newbees - Great reading materials.

    This is going to be much like the great video thread only for free reading material. Again, I would love it if experienced guys posted great free stuff they think new guys should read. Please don't just dump links. Write a brief review of what it contains and why it is important. Limit it to stuff beginners should absorb. I will be watching over this and editing out useless posts to keep it useful. Please don't post in this thread thanking us for the links. Spend that time thinking about how to use what you just learned. And please download files when you can. You are getting it free so go easy on their server. And you should be building a library of useful reference material.

    ~ ~ ~

    The DiCarlo Escalation Ladder. One of the most useful guides ever. He describes step by step how to escalate, from eye contact to sex and what order to do what when and how. This will get you laid and show you how to take baby steps in escalation to test if she is DTF. (Down To Fuck, a common Community term.)

    This is not currently available as a free download. I did find two links to read it online. I bet you can find it as a torrent if you do that sort of thing. Here are links that work today, please notify me if they are dead at some future date.

    This second one is the new 2nd Edition.

    Please download this. You can open it with Adobe Reader.

    I find it hard to believe anyone does not have Reader, but if you don't you can find it here. It is free. Be sure to uncheck, Install " Free! McAffe Security Scan", unless you like crapware that issues ominous pop ups telling you your cookies are security risks that McAffe can manage for a large annual fee.
    Last edited by Silvertree; 06-02-2015, 06:51 PM.
    The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae

  • #2
    Is There Anything Good About Men

    All men need to read this little piece. Especially if you are young. The current accepted wisdom is that men are these inferior, violent, stupid creatures who got to where they are by exploiting women. There is a huge pedestaling of women in our culture. They are just the most wonderful creatures, nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault, especially in a relationship, and it is just horrible that they make 73 cents for every dollar a man makes, and bla, bla, bla. We have all heard this since the beginning of forever.

    Let me ask you this...

    When is the last time you heard how great men were? That they were good for anything other than moving large items from where they are now to where some wise and wonderful woman thinks they should be? That they often times are the smartest person in the family?

    Well the truth is that most of the cool stuff we take for granted today was invented by men, and most of the most dangerous jobs are done by men, and most of the risk needed to make our world work is taken by men. We make things work. We do what needs to be done.

    So buck up. You are not the useless drag on society you have been brainwashed to believe. You are a man and without men's effort, ingenuity, and risk taking, we would still be living in caves, albeit nicely decorated caves.
    Last edited by Silvertree; 09-13-2014, 05:08 AM.
    The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


    • #3
      Doing my bit for the Community!

      Just some real basic stuff that i overlooked. (Going to make this one short and sweet as i have shit to do)

      1. Don't be afraid to be different; If every other guy is complimenting her, make a light-hearted joke (Neg) about her appearance Similarly if every other guy is staring at her boobs, don't look at her boobs. Trick is to make yourself stand out from the crowd and the usual guys she sees.

      2. Don't give a fuck (A concept that is hard to master mainly because we have been programmed from birth to give a fuck and it is hard to re-programme social conditioning.

      I will give an example of not giving a fuck; so me and a few buds went to our local hang out, didn't bother getting a drink, hit the dancefloor straight off and started to duggy at first we were getting wierd looks from people and most people moved away, then these hot girls came over and started getting down with us, then some more came, at one point we had three groups of HBs doing the duggy with us, then i got on stage near the DJ booth, simply went up and asked if i could. For me it seems that everyone loves that relaxed, chilled out, non-needy guy who does not give a fuck. If you can embody that then i think your on your way to better things.

      3. There is no league. Forget the existence of a league, again social conditioning, but there simply is NO league, there is nothing stopping me or you from sleeping with the hottest girls on the planet.

      4. Lose your social paranoia. If you think people are talking about you, don't because they are probably not. To think the world revolves around you and to constantly think that everyone is talking behind your back and constantly making nasty remarks about you is dumb, so STOP.

      Just wanted to end with a timeless classic quotes, "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about at all" - Oscar Wilde


      • #4
        At ST's suggestion, here's my post on having lasting Relationships:

        1. Abundance Mentality

        If you operate from a frame of scarcity, you will never have awesome, long-lasting Relationships on your terms. Before you even worry about Relationships, you have to be utterly confident in your ability to meet women. If you feel the fear of losing a woman creep in, you need to immediately GFTOW (if you're in LTR, you need to at least game women and increase your number of female friends). The only way to really develop Abundance Mentality is by fucking lots of women. Even if you ultimately want an LTR, you still have to do this. There is no way for you to have a "perfect" relationship if you have any feelings of scarcity. If you're an FNG posting about your one-itis, and you say, "don't tell me to Next her, just tell me how to make my relationship better," then you are scared. It's not because she's a wonderful woman and there's "no reason" to Next her. It's because you do not believe (honestly) that you can go out and meet women who are just as incredible if not more incredible!

        2. Screening + Compliance Building

        For guys who are good at meeting women, but have lots of bullshit in their Relationships, it's often because they failed to screen her properly. I'll see posts that read, "well, she's a pretty huge freak, but USUALLY she's great. It's just occasionally I have to deal with titanic shit tests. What do I do?" Next her! (If you "can't", see number 1 above). There's a lot of different ways to screen women, and there are plenty of posts in the archive to that effect.

        For me, I screen and build compliance simultaneously. What this means is that I demonstrate the person that I am in a genuine way, while requiring certain behavior on her part if she wishes to be with me. If she either can't handle the person I am, or she's not willing to respect me and treat me the way I like to be treated, then she will blow herself out! You can see, again, why number 1 is important, because if you consider yourself lucky to gain the interest of even one woman, then you won't have what it takes to really test her and potentially blow her out. You must be willing to reject a woman from your rotation who doesn't meet your standards. That doesn't mean she can't be a friend or pivot. You can even let her orbit you until she "improves" (for some women, it simply takes them longer to understand what it takes to be with you, and that's fine). Note that there's no judgment here. It's simply the case that her level of compliance determines her level of relationship with me. It's HER choice, and I put no pressure on her and make no judgment of her for her choice! All women can enrich your life in some way.

        So if, for example, you wish to screen out freaks, you do so by requiring her to NOT bring drama into your life (and to not demonstrate other freak-like behavior). If she does, then she gets blown out. Sometimes a girl will "slip past" your radar. That's fine. You fuck her for a while, and when you start seeing those freak-like behaviors, then you simply downgrade her or Next her in a loving way. You're not angry. It's simply the case that you don't feel that both of you will have the most positive Relationship at that level.

        For this reason, Nexting, to me, is partly about screening and compliance building. And as I mentioned above, just because I next a woman doesn't mean I won't let her back in later if she improves (I hate this word; I just mean that she chooses to meet my particular set of standards to be in a relationship).

        Having standards is attractive to women, and demonstrating these standards will actually make them more compliant. Basically, the more compliance you require, the more compliance she is likely to show! But note that I'm saying "require" and NOT "expect". I don't EXPECT her to always be compliant. In fact, I expect her to shit test me when I least expect it. This is what I love about Relationships, the tension and uncertainty. If the shit test is big enough, I'll simply Next her until she becomes compliant again. It's in a woman's nature to test you and this is a feminine and sexy trait. If you're not attracted to a woman's femininity, then fuck a man.

        3. EFA - Early Frame Announcement

        I hinted at this above when I said that you should express yourself genuinely and demonstrate the person that you are. If you are flirtatious, then flirt with other women in her presence! If you are physical and love to KINO, then KINO other people in her presence. Do not be afraid of what she might discover about you. This doesn't mean that you should tell her, "I'm fucking other women." But it does mean that you should behave in a way that's fully congruent with a man who fucks a lot of women. It should be obvious to her, from you behavior, and from the reactions you get from the women around you, that you are a man who is either fucking these other women, or could fuck them if you choose to. I demonstrate this when I am out, when I am with friends or at parties, when I introduce her to my other MLTRs, through my online profiles, and so on. For example, there is little a woman could post on my Facebook wall that I would want to delete for fear of what another woman might think about me. The spicier the better!

        And then, as soon as I start fucking a woman, I further establish my EFA by NOT changing who I am around her just because I'm having sex with her. I will continue to flirt and KINO other people as always. I will continue to have a very full and busy schedule (that I feel no need to elucidate to her beyond "I'm busy tonight"). An EFA isn't really an "announcement" in that you sit down and explain to her who you are. This will sound to her like you are trying to prove to her that you're a big awesome player, and this will come across weak and try-hard. No, you demonstrate your EFA by being the man that you are, unapologetic, dominant, charming, social, and unaffected by her presence (except to enjoy her company).

        4. Social Proof

        This is related to number 3 above. I use my social circle and social proof a lot to continually reaffirm my EFA and to maintain value and status to her. If you stop spending time with your friends and other women because you're in a relationship, then you will quickly lose her attraction. There are some guys who don't believe in social circle pickup, and that's fine. But you should still be comfortable with what your friends and people around you say about you (to her). If you meet a woman solo and she never sees you interact with other people (this is weird), then she will have no way of ever knowing if you're being honest or genuine with her, because she can't compare it to the way you behave around other people, and how they respond to you. She will shit test you constantly as a result. Additionally, you have much less value to her, because to a woman, social status is very important.

        5. Value and Status

        IMO, this is big. Rockstars and other famous people can get laid simply due to their status. You can use this to your benefit! Be the rockstar of your social circle. A woman is a lot more likely to "put up with" your polyamory if you have huge value to her. If by being with you she can increase her own social status, and she can meet new people through you, then she will stay with you for much longer. I don't mean this to sound like a manipulative gimmick. But we are social animals, and we have been evolving over the millenia to always pursue higher value and status. A woman will always strive to increase her own status so that she can meet other higher status males (of course, this won't happen if you are the highest status male in your group, but she will never logically realize this). There are some PU "purists" who believe you should do PU in a vaccuum, without resorting to any social proof. That's fine! For getting laid, or even for having short-lasting FBs, that's totally fine. But for a man who wishes to have wonderful long-lasting MLTRs, he needs to be comfortable having a lot of people (women AND men) love him and appreciate him.

        Believe it or not, it's scary to have relationships with so many different people. That's why some men will work hard to learn to meet women, but will still be socially awkward and have few friends. Learning to appreciate people, and being able to accept appreciation from others requires you to have a genuinely high belief of your own self-worth. If you can do this, you will not only be happier and have more women in your life, but you will automatically have much higher value with any one woman, and she will stay with you longer.

        6. Nexting

        Nexting a woman doesn't mean "breaking up" with her. Break ups are awful and awkward and a great way to completely destroy a relationship with a woman. Nexting a woman, as I mentioned above, is about building compliance. If you have high value with a woman, and you give her great sex, she will want to come back, and she will do so on your terms (because that's the only way you'll let her back in). But when you do Next a woman, you have to be willing for it be permanent. You can't see it as a tactic, with the hope that she'll realize "the error of her ways" and come back to you. This is the impression I get when I read posts from guys who ask how long to Next her for, or when they should call her, or what they should say to her. They're thinking of it as a tactic, and they're scared to next her for too long.

        A Next is done from a position of love and leadership. It's not about you and getting your way. It's about you being happy, and her being happy. That is because you know that a feminine woman is happiest when she is with a strong dominant man. She will test a man constantly to make sure that he is still strong. She has to know that you are willing to lose her, and that you have no fear of losing her, because you can meet other women at any time! Nexting is not vindictive. It's not "punishment". You don't do it out of anger. You're doing it because as a man with a mission (in life), you know that is what you have to do so that she doesn't impede on your mission (I stole this from Deida). She, or women in general, isn't the driving force of your life. She is just along for the ride! If she misbehaves, you need to leave her by the side of the road for a while until she calms down and you let her back in to continue on the exciting ride that is YOU.

        Nexting is not negative. It's positive! If you have an argument with a woman and Next her out of anger, then you have damaged both her and yourself. The relationship will forever be damaged as a result, because you weren't able to handle her femininity. You are a masculine man who has standards, and you know what's best for yourself and for her, and it is out of that position of strength and leadership that you Next her when it becomes necessary. But even after you Next her, you still love and appreciate her just as much.

        7. Shit tests

        I don't register shit tests any more. They are a fun, exciting, and feminine quality of a woman. I love shit tests. That's what makes a relationship exciting. That's what makes me know that I am alive. That sizzle and tension between her and me. I don't get upset over shit tests, I relish in them! If you can learn to love a woman for her shit tests, then you will stop seeing them as a challenge or an impediment to having a Relationship. They don't impede it, they enable the relationship! Shit tests are her way of testing and reaffirming your masculinity. By allowing and embracing her shit tests, you keep her strongly attracted to you, and make the relationship much hotter for the both of you.

        And if a woman throws a shit test that's Next-worthy, then it's not really the shit test itself that's causing the Next (that would be a reaction out of anger). It is because she has either shown disrespect (which typically represents a failure on my part), or because the sub-communication behind her shit test is that she can't be in the Relationship in its current state (EG. she requires monogamy). Sometimes the Next will reveal that it really was just a little shit test, in which case she will come back, and no harm has been done (because you Nexted her lovingly). Sometimes it really is a deal-breaker, in which case she will be a good friend to you, and you can continue to appreciate her in that regard. And sometimes she will continue to grow and change as a person, and will come back to you when she realizes that the "deal-breaker" was just some antiquated social programming on her part and she has let go of it.

        8. TIME

        This is probably the single most powerful relationship tool. If you see a woman only once a week, you will greatly extend the length of the Relationship. By far the easiest way to accomplish this is by having many women in your life. If you are in an LTR, it's done by having a very full life, and making sure that she appreciates your time (in return, you have to make sure that every moment the two of you are together is very good).

        From a purely mathematical standpoint, if a Relationship with a woman that you see 3x a week last 4 months, then by seeing her only once a week you can (roughly) make it last 12 months. Now there's obviously a lot of other variables involved. But, in general, the more you see her in a week, the sooner the Relationship will end (the people who argue this point most vehemently generally have one-itis, or are in an LTR, but see above about having a full life). So instead of seeing one woman 3 times a week, see three women once each! Or more! And if you throw in your other activities and the time you spend meeting new women, you will have a very packed week indeed.

        Never spend time with a woman out of a sense of obligation. You will resent her, and she will feel it. Only spend time with a woman when you want to and when you know that it will be a very positive experience for the both of you. For this reason, do not hesitate to say NO to an (M)LTR if you are not in the mood to be with her. You will only end up damaging the Relationship and reducing her attraction for you. If you live with your LTR (which IMO you should only do if you're married, barring a couple other circumstances, and no, your circumstance isn't it), then you have to be able to do your own thing at home without feeling like you have to respond to her or give your attention. This is why you have to build compliance before you get into an LTR, so that she knows that you time is you time, and she is not allowed to encroach on it, until you wish to let her be with you (in which case you are 100% with her).

        Every moment you spend with her should be incredible. Needless to say, you should have lots of sex while you're with her.

        9. Sex

        This one should be obvious, but I'll point it out anyway: Fucking you should be incredible for her. She should have lots and lots of orgasms. I don't want to get into this too much, but giving her orgasms isn't just about hitting the right spots. It's about showing dominance in bed. A (feminine) woman gets very horny with a man who is really attractive to her and who's very dominant in bed, and her orgasms will be much bigger as a result. Of course you should also have your technique down. If sex with you is mediocre, the relationship will be full of drama and will not last long. Sex is very important. If you're inexperienced or not confident in bed, sorry, you have to fix this. Luckily, meeting and fucking lots of different women will quickly improve your situation.

        Probably the most difficult thing to do is to learn to appreciate sex beyond just your orgasm. Many men just want to come as quickly as possible, with no care for how she feels. You have to train yourself to enjoy every step of the process, and to relish in being able to make a woman cum. This is easy for me because I have a big ego, and it's a huge ego rush to me when I can make a woman cum and she showers me with words about how incredible I am.

        If you have nothing else going for you, just being fantastic in bed will go a huge way towards lengthening and improving your Relationships. All of the stuff preceding this is really just icing on the cake of great sex. One reason is that being able to give a woman lots of strong orgasms is a very masculine trait (partly because you have to be very dominant and confident in bed). Another reason is that orgasms realease lots of good chemicals that will make a woman very happy for quite a while. This is one important reason why you should fuck a woman almost every time you're with her. This will mitigate many shit tests.

        10. Affection

        You can be very affectionate while still being alpha, because you are doing it by your choice from a position of strength. And it's OK to accept affection from women. I point out often that a woman treating you too well is a shit test. However, if a woman loves me and is simply being affectionate to me, then this is OK and I shouldn't punish her for it. Women are naturally affectionate to those who they love (an example, on the other hand, of her treating you too well is buying you lots of things, or making some other huge sacrifice of her time or resources on you).

        Affection is the last piece of the puzzle that will allow you to have a whole relationship with a woman. Even if you don't offer a woman monogamy, you still offer so many other wonderful things to her (high value, high status, awesome sex, affection, etc.) that she will stay with me for a vey long time. Essentially, she develops one-itis for you! This physical closeness and intimacy you share with her is intoxicating and addicting. Combine this with sex and it's a killer combo!

        Of course, the challenge is that it goes both ways, and it's easy to develop one-itis if you're inexperienced. Affection has to come from a genuine love of her femininity, and the joy you feel in giving her joy. It's NOT about holding on to her tightly for fear of losing her. It takes time to learn the difference, because affection and intimacy, whatever it's reason, is very addicting. One easy test though is as follows: If while you're being affectionate with her, you have the urge to say "I love you", then you are probably doing it from a position of fear and an attempt to own her. DAFS my post title "I love you" for more about this.

        Be the leader of your own life. Be the leader of those around you. LOVE people genuinely, and LET them love you in return.

        * * * * *

        Also, because it's referenced so often: The Rules


        • #5
          If I had to decide on just one post to give to newbies, I'd say they should check out the Newbie Method by IAmMaximus.

          More broadly, I'd suggest the list of best posts from the old forum from the Sedfast Hall of Fame, compiled by yours truly. I am, of course, a little biased here.

          If Fastseduction is down again, you should be able to find the Newbie Method at the beginning of the pdf compilation here or here.

          Expanding the scope again I'd suggest looking through the entire Hall of Fame. There's a lot of good material there.


          • #6
            How I Got Good Fast At A Young Age (Attn - cadfe)

            Note: I moved this post from its own thread to the Required Reading thread because we are consolidating the stickies to clean up the top of this forum. I also pasted several very good replies Teeve made to people who commented on this post.

            I received a very good question over PM by cadfe. I decided to answer him - but I figured out many others could find my response beneficial. Therefore I decided to post it in public.

            Originally posted by cadfe
            Hey Teev,

            You're probably one of the top gurus on the forum, and you're only 20. I'm 19, and I have to admit I am pretty jealous (I only got one year to catch up on you ). You also mentioned that you discovered the community at 15. I actually discovered it at 16, but I learned mostly old/bad game tactics such as negging and amoging and whatnot so that really messed me up, and I only recently fixed those negative aspects. Also I got a bad case of acne at 17 which just recently cleared up. It kinda messed with my self-confidence but now I am working on fixing myself up. I hope one day I will be able to catch up to your skills! How did you get so good at 20? Any tips for a guy around your age?

            Hi Cadfe, this is a good question - even if it is a little vague. There is a lot to be said on these matters, but I decided to share what I thought was the most crucial. There are of course a lot of other other important elements that have been left out.

            First of all. You don't have many reasons to be jealous. Because first of all, I am older than you, which means that I have been into this for 1 year more than you. Also I started at 15, you started at 16, which means that I started before you. This means that I have been into this for longer than you - in fact 2 years. Now you might say that two years isn't much, but it is, especially at our own age, 2 years of difference means a lot - because at our age we are more in development than any other ages. Like someone who is 49 doesn't differ much from someone who is 47. However, someone of age 13 is way less developed than someone who is 15. To explain this better - when you were 15, you changed a lot from when you were 13. This is why the 2 years of experience I have more than you makes such a huge difference. But don't worry about this, you are still very young and have a lot of time to catch up and get good. Some people are even virgin at 35 - well these are in a hurry - you are not.

            Another thing you should be aware of is that I really wanted to learn this whole pick up thing when I started out. I didn't do like 80% of the guys here who wanted to have some advices on how to get that special woman. That was not my intention. I never asked such a questions. My intentions was to learn pick up and become really good. So my mindset and motivation with learning this whole thing was rather different. Instead of wasting time with one-itis and getting that "special girl", I focused on "how could I become super attractive". This way I approached this whole thing with the proper mindset. I was very motivated, I was genuinely motivated to get good. I was really interested in pick up and seduction itself, not simply interested in the quick fixes - i spent a lot of time trying to figure out how this works, why things are the way they are, and how I could handle different situations. Here is a toy example (which was actually a true one):

            "There was a time where I got a lot of lmr"
            As a result I asked myself a few questions:

            1) what are the causes to lmr/what is lmr
            2) why do I get lmr
            3) What do I do that is not working - where is the problem with my game
            4) What could I do to change this.

            I reflected around it. And here was what I figured out

            1) LMR is women holding back sex because - she has ASD or perceives you as a boyfriend potential
            2) I get lmr because I don't show my true intentions early enough + I need to bypass ASD
            3) Right now, I show too much high value (like you, I started with MM), plays too much the social game, she thinks I am cool, but she doesn't know my true intentions and therefore doesn't perceive me like a sexual guy. I also don't handle ASD.
            4) Focus on ways on how I could handle ASD, and be more sexual - communicate that I am a sexual guy as early as possible

            If you do use a version of this model anywhere were you struggle, you will get good fast, because then you reflect over your game. You discover what you you do wrong and how you could do things better. This way you don't get confused with pu books - instead you will have a much more easier time creating your game. Of course, reading can help, give you some inspiration on how you could handle the different problems you encounter - but you don't let the books lead you... instead you lead yourself and the books becomes simply a source of inspiration - after a while I found books (and pick up products overall) pretty useless.

            Also field experience matters. But you also need to figure out what REALLY happened and why it happened. A good way to do so is to write lay reports like I do. Typing up lay report (and field reports) helps you out a lot. Write down what happened, why it happened, why you did so-and-so, why this works/didn't work, and what you could do instead (if needed). This way you will have a better idea of where you are standing. A higher level of awareness will occur. It will force you to analyze the interactions, which you will learn a lot from, it will point out what your sticking points problems are and even helps you diagnose their causes. You can then reflect over possible solutions and see how they can be solved. You will also be detailed about the situation, the social dynamic, the girls you are with, you and your personality - this way people can give you better advices - maybe offer you possible solutions, or point out some sticking points that you can work with. You will also learn what you are good at, so that you can keep doing what works. Either way, the main purpose of all this is that you get a better view of yourself - and your results as you will be more in touch with your level of skills. It will then make it much easier for you to get better this way.

            Also - stop taking advices too seriously. Field test it a few times, then discuss your results with the person who gave them to you. If it doesn't work, fuck it. Also don't listen to all those charlatans in the community- there are so many scammers. A tip from me is to take advice from either well known guys who you know got skills - Gunwitch, Mystery etc.... and avoid newer guys who are known due to good marketing. However, I would not become a follower of those who I believe give me good advices - that is dangerous. Always take advices with a grain of salt, reflect around them, field test them, reflect around the initial results, make some modifications to make it fit your personality, discuss the advice with others or those who gave it to you and then field test them again - if it really doesn't work out for you, do something else. I also highly recommend taking advices from non-commercial or not-that-commercial guys, because they will help you because they have a love for pick up and not for the money and have less intentions to scam you. It should also be noted that a lot of advice giving by commercial puas are fitted for the majority - men in their 30's who wants a girlfriend. But non-of these advices are fitted for a young teen who wants to bang around - in fact most puas are not talking about how you can get laid efficiently. That is only a few minority with a very special interest talks about. You will find many of them here, even if the majority here talks about polyamorous relationships (which I doubt is of much interest to you, as like me, you are rather young)

            You need to define your own goals - mine was to have crazy sex with many women, and find your ways to reach them. My first initial goals was to fit in and become popular. This is a trap most men do, especially your age. Because you then become a follower, not a leader - your success will be defined by someone else, or a group. You need to create your own path. Create your own thing, be an outsider - but still be a winner. To put my case as an example - I wasn't popular in high school - nor was I "not-populare". But I know that if I wanted to get laid from being popular (I.E. having high social value), I would play in the usual league, strive more, and having my success defined by something external (other people and my place in the social hierarchy). Therefore I chose my own path, instead of being attractive from being attractive out of social value (being popular at school) - I decided to offer women something else. It was in my marketing class, after studying Maslow hierarchy of needs that I saw that sex was a physiological need - a very important need. Social value was a much lower social need - so why should I focus on this aspect? Instead I decided that I would be more attractive and gain more influence over women by selling that exact thing - "sex" - instead of - "social value". This took some time to master - but like anything else, practice is what makes you good. If you practice by going out, and having fun while doing it, while you diagnosis your own game, you will see results coming much faster, and as a result you will get more motivated and the whole thing will become more fun.

            About practice? how much do you actually practice? If you were active since you were 16... why haven't I seen more field reports and posts from you? One of the keys to my success was my high level of ambitions. I went out as often as I could, and when I was 16, I went out 3 times a week. Are you going out 3 times a week practicing? If yes for for how long have you done that? If the answer is "no, I haven't gotten out much" - then you have only yourself to blame. Success doesn't come on a silver-plate. It requires failures, emotional investments, sometimes even confusions, depressions, but if you keep pushing you will get good - however as long as you practice the proper way. I can't tell you that much more on how to handle psychological problems that occurs during the learning phase because I have already written shitloads, but I know illuminatus has good advices on this exact thing. For a quick tip, I would say - don't be too hard on yourself, do baby steps and if you get too much harsh rejections (that will only cause pain in the end) stop doing what you are doing and try to do thing by taking small baby steps.

            That is my advices. It takes time to get good. Also the learning curve in learning pick-up is not stable. Like you can go 5 months with a dry spell, and suddenly you get laid. If the curve was stable, it would have taken 5 new months to get laid again, but that is not the case - because once you make (figure out how..) things work, the next success could be right around the corner, in fact you might get laid again the next month. After that, you get an even better idea of how things work and what works for you, and it might take a week... before you get laid again. The curve is not balanced. So in case you are fresh when it comes to pick up, be aware that it takes time to figure out what works for you - and you might not even get laid at all during that time. But once you discover what works, with a few adjustments, the lays racks up.

            Hope this helps.

            ~ ~ ~

            Thanks for the kudos everybody


            Originally posted by cadfe
            Thanks Teevster! Very informative response.
            No problems

            Very true. But I will remain jealous because it is good motivation !
            Well then, remain jealouse

            Ok so you are saying it is very important to reflect on your experiences. Before I was thinking maybe it was ok not to reflect and just let the subconscious take care of it, like let the brain's own neural learning mechanisms toss out the bad and keep the good. But you think reflecting on it will give you better results? As someone who is interested in psychology, you must be aware of the various biases that can skew our recollections of events? For example, you attribute your success to XXX behavior, but maybe she was into you all along and XXX behavior was irrelevant? Or just the fact that our memories of events are very inaccurate?
            I am very aware of this problem. And yes, it happened to me a lot and most of what is taught around here faces this problem. A guy gets laid and then mental masturbate about it and claim that the cause of his success was due to something different than what he tought. That is my main concern with guys who just recently had gotten success with women - they post tons of lr's, write lots of post - they do have success, but they fail to really understand the whole picture. Their explanation of how things works out is plainly wrong, it doesn't reality. For that instance, sciences experience similare problems.

            However, you just need to accept this as a fact. You will analyze your field experience and try to learn from it. Let us say you like... cock/funny (which I don't), and you go out doing it and suddently you get laid. Then you are thinking that cocky funny works and that gave you laid. Alright... so now you believe cocky funny is what works for you - but in fact she fucked you because you were escalating and had a good eye contact and body lanaguage. Well here we have a problem.

            So what you do is simply try to use cocky funny another night out, actually you do it a few times. Mybe around 20 times. If the results are not even near similare to your previous success story (where you in fact used C/F), then you can exclude CF from being the cause of your success. You need to challenge your thought, you reality. Many times I believe my success was due to something else than what really caused it. Like for example, this lay report from 2008, where I claim that social proof was THE thing... where in fact, when I think back, it was due to the fact that 1) she was really horny, 2) I was being alone and available, 3) I was being sexual.


            So I faced this problem. But that is why you post lay reports... that is why you try to make a theory from your experiences - and then retest it until you figure out what really works for you. Like you go out and try X technique. You get success.... so in order to have more grounds to base this assumption on, you go out again... again and again and try the same thing each time. If you have a lot of success with it, well then it works. Also a good thing is to post your experiences and the techniques you use. I posted the sex talk guide (2009), originally with a selfish intention - to see if anyone else had success with it in order to find out wether I had good grounds to claim that my success was due to my use of sex talk - and it turned out right. This doesn't mean you can just post crap - you need to have field tested it, had success with it - consider this "trick" final finish to your mastery - the last proof you need that what you do actually works and that you know what the cause is.

            Of course, after a while, you get experience and you can more at ease figure out things right away - why so-and-so works, what worked, why it worked without doing all this. But this of course is only having experience. Of course, this problem might still occur. There are no ways to completlyy solve this problem, and that you will never truly figure out what caused you success. But you can have an almost accurate belief about it - which is way better than knowing jackshit.

            In fact, what you say is to just let the unconscious solve things out. Yes ok, but it does so automatically - so why not try to do this consciously. Like you have no control over you unconscious mind, so why do you want it to determine everything - your success with women? You will become like most RSD guys - unpredictible, one day you get laid, another you don't. If you like it that way, that is fine. But if you want consistency in your game - ie get laid regularly and being more in control of you results, you need to be aware and conscious about your own game.

            Most guys doesn't like this path because it is hard work, and most guys simply wants a few one night stands a year and then have a girlfriend. But as I said, my goals are different. I want consistency, I want to know what I am doing, I want to be able to do almost the same things every night. Of course, you won't have the similare amount of success each night as there so many factors that plays in:
            - Your unconscious mind
            - Your mood
            - The venue
            - The mood of the girls
            - Obstacles and noise
            - many other things...

            But then again, you still have way more control if you are conscious and aware of what you are doing. In fact most of my nights are rather similare in terms of success - and even the nights were I don't laid, I still doesn't consider them a complete failure - I had some good leads, I might have gotten a few make outs.... good number closes....

            I never said it was easy. It takes time to learn this whole thing. It takes even more time to really figure out what you are doing, what you are doing right and doing wrong. You will fail many times, both in success with women or in theorizing what you are dojg - being aware of your own game. But hey, I never said things were easy!

            Right, I'm trying to spend less time on this forum and more time out and about.
            Always a good idea!

            When I first started I mostly tested this stuff out in social circles.
            I am useless in social circles. Just recently, I have been able to pull things off in them, but the success is very limited. Just to point out something, social circles at our age and social circles for older people are two different world. This is why most of the social circle stuff you read from older guys is useless to you. In fact, social circles of people of our age are hierarchical as fuck. As a result, there are strict rules and you have to fit in - or you are out. Going in and being yourself requires HUGE balls. I only pulled this off during my last year of high school, and I had already been into this for more than 3 years. I was in fact getting huge success - maybe my best year. I had a 24 year old girlfriend that was hot as hot when I was 19 and the guys at school were like OMG. I was being unique, I didn'y give a shit. I could open up and be myself 100%, because guys knew that if they tried to put me down, I would tear them appart. Like a guy came up to me during my first days at school (during my last year in high school I changed school as a result of my section in my old school was gone). The guys came up and said something silly, with all his friend around, trying to get really close into me. I looked at him in the eyes "wanna suck my dick?" then tapped him on the head "it is okey buddy, I respect you". The guy since them, who was one of the populare guys at that school was cool to me since then. The guys said I was such a perve - yes I was well known for being a perve - but when during the break, girls asked me to share "one of my crazy sex stories" - well guys quickly discovered the real deal. But I wasn't the alpha male of the gorup, i still remained a bit of an outsider - guys were cool but I was never one of them - I always dressed the way I liked it - with fancy dressjackets and super slim jeans and super fancy haircute (ex was a hairdresser). But again this success was due to the fact that I joined a new social circle after reaching a high peak in my "pua" carrier.

            But yeah, I stay away from social circles. Maybe this is because I have figure out I didn't really needed them. I could go out alone and pick up a chick and have fun. I knew many people, just aquitances. But I like being independent, being alone and do my own thing. I can help people with the purpose of getting help back one day, and rather have a few friends that really like and enjoy being around. I probably only have 6 friends, and one of them is sparxx on this forum.

            Sorry for all the random shit I wrote. My point was - if you want to be in a social circle at your age - you have to be the leader - which is a huge task. And here, approval from others and popularity plays in. You success will again be defined by others, and not only by yourself. That is not the way I like things to be. I want to be the cause of my own success.

            So you need to play by the rules, instead of defining your own rules. If you want to do it like me and become more of an independent guy, then you are not really doing social circles anymore. If you want to do social circles, go ahead, but then you success will be defined by others, and if you aren't the leader - the success will be very limited (do I need to explain why?)

            However, I do regret things - like no having kept some social circles on the side. The reason is because it gets you to parties and stuff - which allows you to meet other girls - and fuck them easily (parties have logistics pre-set usually). I shouldn't have closed off everybody I knew. Because in the end of the day... my week ends are like this - alone till 10 o clock, then dressing up for then heading out alone. Going out earlier to a party wouldn't hurt me. But yeah, I can build that thing back up, so I am not too worried.

            Unfortunately we Americans cannot be clubbing all the time like you Europeans, especially with our drinking age . What if someone is not close to a lot of nightlife/does not have a ton of money to go out all the time, what would you recommend in that situation?
            Unfortunatly for us norwegians, in order to enter most clubs, you need to be 23 (!!). You yeah I faced similare problems to you. my solution? Find the few clubs that allowed 18+ but they usually sucked - even if I managed to pull it off great there. Now I will be careful giving advices here because I don't want to motivate anyone to act against the law, but what I did was getting a fake ID - a good one. But again, this can cause you big trouble if you get caught. Another thing that helped was to get to know some true clubbers, people who knew the nightlife and oculd get me in - even when it was illegal for me to there (in norway you have to be 20 in order to drink booze).

            Maybe clubbing isn't an option for you yet - but that is ok. Clubgame is not the most efficient way to get laid. There are many options:
            - Daygame
            - Homeparites ( get to know some people who throw them off, without necesarily being part of their social circle)
            - Online game (I believe this is for old people..with no time at their disposal - I never tried online game)
            - Anywhere - join a gym, join a danceclass, yoga class - lots of women there!

            And relating to what you said about the learning curve. Last month I fucked two girls in the span of a week, and I thought "all right, all my work is starting to pay off", and then I went dry for a month.
            Stop crying! These are good results! (well depends on how much work you did put into it). Man I have been there too - had many short success followed with some dry spell - that is okey, it happens. There are many reasons for that:
            - Your mood has changed (due to many factors)
            - Your sex drive has lowered - when you fuck a chick, your level of testosterone increases, increasing your drive to try to fuck a new chick, when you don't, it dies off. Happens all the time
            - Your confidence increases when you get laid - and makes you invisible in field the few days after. But then it dies off to.

            Happens to all of us, just accept it and keep going out. You seem to get results - that all that matter. Because your real skills level is defined by you success and less by your losses. So If I went out tomorow and didn't get laid... and it happens again for the next 3 times I go out - do I suck? Not if I had a threesome two weeks ago. You see what I mean? Your biggest successes is what defines your skills. Top athletes doesn't win everyday, but they are top athletes because they won X championship once. Get it?

            My goal was 2 new girls a month but then February was completely dry for me. It's very frustrating to me, to have success in fits and bursts. I kept telling myself "Ok I knew how to do this before, why can't I do it now?". Where along the learning curve would you say I am?
            Haha! February used to be a very dry mounth for me too, but it starts to get a little better in april. May - june tends to be good months. Summer hollidays tends to be awesome - september and october are good too, november and december sucks big time. I don't know why, but it was like this for me too. Probably the weather. Most clubs ae dead during these bad periods - so my theory does make sense, but I can't really explain why - I could try to come up with some assumptions but that would be just lame and not truly useful.

            However, when you manage to be conscious and aware of your own game, you are more likely to pull off your "best game" when ever you want. In fact, these days, I face less these problems, because I less dependent of "state" and "being in the right mood" or "the right place at the right time" - it happens because "I know what I am doing".

            A few more questions:

            Do you ever do daygame cold approach? I can talk to girls at night no problem, but going up to a random girl during the day and chatting her up gives me anxiety while night game does not. I guess maybe because its more socially acceptable to talk to random girls at night? Also I feel like daygame cold approach is inefficient, is it not?
            I used to do some daygame at your age. I found it boring as I was very high energy back then. But I did get good results from it. It is absolutly a great of way of meeting hot and cool women (less "crazy" than clubgirl - you meet less fucked up women, less dramatic). It is true that it requires more balls to open up chicks during the day time, but it is actually WAY easier to open during daytime. It is also way easier to keep her attention in daygame. Also in clubs, you might be able to conversate with women, but it usually means jack shit to her - it doesn't mean she is interested. In order to make her interested, the requirements in clubs are WAY higher - and requires a game that is way more bold (and maybe requires even more balls). In daygame, if a chick talks to you and keeps the conversation going, it is most of the time on - whereas in clubs, it usally isn't (-"sorry, we are leaving now" or "We gotta go to the bathroom"). Also in daygame you can take you time, you will be way less stressed, face much less obstacles (- "my friend just got too drunk, I gotta go" or "Oh shit... I lost my wallet..."), requires less hard work from you - as most men hit on women in nightclubs, women higher their standards and lowers their attention span...

            Daygame is easier, but requires more balls when it comes to approaching her. The biggest difficulty in daygame is to get the conversation going without her leaving - you need to "hook" them in. there are lots on information on that instance and the techniques are not hard to pull off.

            Daygame needs to be done properly, if not it is not efficient. In clubgame, you can get some "help" from the environment, her mood, etc... but in daygame - it all lies in your own hands (at least to certain extent).

            I would say that it takes more time to be good at clubbgaming. Still many fresh puas seems to only have (minimal...) success in clubs because they can rely on external factors - often known as luck. Pulling with consistency in nightgame is WAY harder then in daygame - because you can't get lucky everynight. In daygame, you face much less "luck" than in nightgame, but it is easier to pull off - and then I mean with pullings chicks regularly.

            Read daygame posts, read daygame stuff to get an idea of how things works out as a start - just to have something to being with, then go out and get experience and work from that (reflect over your experience).

            I know that you have really great style. Would you mind making a post talking about how you dress or maybe post a few pictures of your outfits?
            It is very hard to to write a fashion guide without being super wague. I will try to write something up when I have time (almost never) - but sadly there are topics I am more interested in covering. I won't post pics for privacy reasons.

            Sorry for not being able to answer this question.

            GET A GAYRIEND!

            There you go

            Thanks again for the awesome response.
            No problem. It is hard for me to really put words on many on those things, and I feel I have forgot to add many important aspects. Sorry for that.

            ~ ~ ~

            Originally posted by pokerodds
            You defined what others need and bend the rules in your favor like Nick said.
            Another huge problem with playing by the rules is that everybody else does it - which makes it much harder to benefit from it as the requirements becomes way higher. Like for example. if I wanted to rely on social value, I would have to work much harder to succeed - because most men focus on the same thing and therefore you need to be the best out of many. This is what old MM tried to do - be the best among the rest - have high social value.

            But it still requires hard work. Consider I open up a store that sells X product. Think now that 100 other stores in my city sell similar products. It would then be very hard for me to sell anything - at least much harder than if I was selling something completely different that the other 100 stores. This is what I decided to do.

            ~ ~ ~

            Originally posted by Isidia

            Oh shit, didn't see this and asked you to post pics in another thread. Sorry!

            No problem.

            I have nothing else to ask but do a research on nutrition, look for posts from ijjjji and Manneken-Pis for more information on that. Also research for substances such as serotonin, testosterone, dopamine and stuff to understand what makes your body produce them. I work out regularly now so I feel more horny than before.
            How is this relevant to this thread?

            On the other hand - here is what I do. I do some sports which I like: MMA, Muay Thai, submission wrestling.... and by this I get a little exercise.

            And I need normal food - I don't eat too much sugar, I use less butter as possible, I eat some meat and some vegetable. I take omega 3 pills + multivitamins - and this seems completely okey for me. Doesn't need special diets and shit. What is what is the point of that? Getting ripped doesn't mean jack shit. If you are fat... and lose a lot of fat... the results will skyrock. But if you are "normal" looking, getting ripped won't do much - just lots of hard work. In fact having too much muscles makes you look too "masculine" and can fuck things up for you. The "big muscle" guys, from my experience does rarely gets laid. Why all the hard work? Cut the fat (like butter and shit), eat vegetables, cut the sugar, cut some carbs (still some carbs can be ok), eat meat, cut drinking a little and you will alright! Damn this is not rocket science.

            Fact is, I am probably way more healthy than guys on weird diets.

            I am not sure about going out all nights if you are not into nightclub and all, I have reduced my time there and sleep better, thus feel better. It depends on how your body works but I used to go out almost 4 days/week and missed a lot of classes last year. So I want to fix this.
            I have sleeping problems: chronic insomniacs. I get strong pills for sleeping. I stopped taking them. So I usually get to bed at 4 o clock and wake up at 12. This how I work. But I am a special case. For most people, it is advices to not to go clubs more than twice a week - it can fuck you up. going out the week days is even more dangerous (unless you have time off/ on holiday).

            I also can't have a good night out when I am worried about the next day... or if I have too much work to do. When out in club, I want to fully release myself. That is why I never go out when I have too much schoolwork to do or school the next days.

            Be careful with scientific articles, don't trust everything you read. Consult them with people who have more knowledge than you on nutrition.
            I talked with my doctor about it! That is a good thing to do. The problem with personal trainer is that they don't give a shit about what is healthy, they usually just give you the diet that makes you look good as fast as possible. A good example of this is "low-carbo diets" - which is actually quiet dangerous - because once you start eating carbs again, you get fat in no time!

            Beside meditation - I also recommend Thai Chi (is it spelled that way?) or yoga.

            ~ ~ ~

            Originally posted by Isidia
            How is this relevant to this thread?
            Teev, I think I was meant to write for Cadfe. But sorry again for being a bit irrelevant.

            I did encounter many advices on fixing my "confidence", helping me to "relax" but they are all in metaphysical level. I just went out and did research for myself to know what exactly make you relaxed and "confident", which starts from chemicals.

            But then my post ensues more information from you haha thanks!
            Eat healthy - but don't become a maniac. I think mediation is good. But beside doing weightlifting, do some martial arts - sanshou, muay thai, kickboxing, bbj, judo, mma. Most guys who have done martial arts are becoming very confident, comfortable with themself, comfortable around others, less affraid, and more open and comfortable about physical contact with other. It also increases your testosterone level which is a good thing. It is a lot of fun too and it will teach you how can defend yourself.

            BTW... forget about all this inner game crap - most of it is not useful at all and it just plain mental masturbation. Some is good, such as hyptnoticas inner game material. Mark manson does also have a really good book for beginners that I think is really good.

            Innergame courses will not cure your problems. I don't have any true answers for this issue. But I believe this video will help:

            In this video, David Bercelli explains some theories around trauma and then show some exercices that you can do at home, that hopefully would remove some trauma, and make you feel more relaxed and confident. Of course, if you are a bad case, this isn't a replacement for therapy, but a good add-on. If you aren't a therapy case, but simply a guy with some traumatic experiences (like the majority of people), then these exercices will do you some good. Do them once a week over a mounth and let us know how you feel.


            Last edited by Silvertree; 03-15-2014, 09:43 PM.


            • #7
              Borderline Personality Disorder:

              An important piece on Borderlines, focused on women, who seem more prone to these behaviors, likely because it is unacceptable for men to behave so badly. A lot of good advice on how to spot them and how dangerous they can be. This piece perfectly describes my mother, sister, one sister in law, and the woman in the couple I know that has the most fucked up relationship and divorce I have ever seen, has totally fucked over a great guy, and has destroyed the future of her daughter, a intelligent beautiful young girl who was seriously fucked up by age 16, largely because her mother is insane.

              These are women you do not want to get involved with.

              The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


              • #8
                Some documents that heavily influenced my understanding of sexual politics in society.
                A decent understanding of sexual politics coupled with our own personal experiences has influenced many of the general themes, frames, and tactics of pickup most of us agree on.
                It's also destroyed any latent guilt many of us may have had about fucking lots of women.
                It's a complete "red-pill" reframe of the sexual landscape that you need to understand in order to be a seuxal rebel against society.

                First one is "The treatise of Love, by an awful bore"
                Translated from the Russian. It's a heavy read covering biology and anthropology in relation to mating. It should explain many behaviours you've seen, but couldn't quite quantify or make sense of. Until now.


                Next up is a book written by a man that details how women actually run the world, and not men, and how this reality has been hidden from you.
                "The Anatomy of Female Power" by Chinweizu
                If the link below dies, try finding it on Amazon. It's hard to get though.


                This one is similar in scope, and written by a woman -- just to confirm that's it's not just men hallucinating this shit.
                "The Manipulated Man" by Esther Vilar



                • #9
                  Originally posted by Silvertree View Post
                  Borderline Personality Disorder:

                  An important piece on Borderlines, focused on women, who seem more prone to these behaviors, likely because it is unacceptable for men to behave so badly. A lot of good advice on how to spot them and how dangerous they can be. This piece perfectly describes my mother, sister, one sister in law, and the woman in the couple I know that has the most fucked up relationship and divorce I have ever seen, has totally fucked over a great guy, and has destroyed the future of her daughter, a intelligent beautiful young girl who was seriously fucked up by age 16, largely because her mother is insane.

                  These are women you do not want to get involved with.

                  Also see


                  • #10
                    Another great post for beginners. Especially those who ended up in the unfuckable class. There is hope for you. Here is one man's story.

                    If what you have been doing isn't working, it is a safe bet that more of the same isn't going to work any better. There is a lot to be said for getting trim and fit, getting a good haircut, and dressing in similar fashion to other guys who are getting laid in your social set.


                    Last edited by Silvertree; 04-03-2013, 04:30 AM.
                    The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


                    • #11
                      Another great post by Tubarao on what is important to get you laid and more importantly to have great experiences with women.

                      The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


                      • #12
                        This post, when I first read it however many months ago, while I was never THAT far down, I had felt that before. Swallowing the redpill didn't make the past any easier to think about, in terms of being awkward and fat that no girl would touch. It did however make the future way brighter.

                        Originally posted by Silvertree View Post
                        Another great post for beginners. Especially those who ended up in the unfuckable class. There is hope for you. Here is one man's story.

                        If what you have been doing isn't working, it is a safe bet that more of the same isn't going to work any better. There is a lot to be said for getting trim and fit, getting a good haircut, and dressing in similar fashion to other guys who are getting laid in your social set.


                        Thankfully I'm only just now hitting my SMV peak, with a good job, in a city that never sleeps with shit tons of hot girls, and I just need to tighten things up, just trying to figure out the best ways.

                        Posting for two reasons. First, there seems to be, from the limited posts that I've read, a bit of perceived space between the manosphere and pua. I actually think it's that middle ground that will make the most well rounded men out of all of us, where the world will be our oyster, no matter which leaders and corporations are trying to fuck it up

                        While I agree that quite a few in the manosphere have taken things a bit too far, in terms of perspectives on certain races and genders leading to the downfall of society, there is much great info to glean from them that will only benefit us. Specifically, being your own man. When I first read The Game, it seemed that all the tricks and techniques were to show you how to fake being the man that the girls want to ride. But reading guys like Rollo and CH (even though he gets a bit too political for me, and some of his commenters get downright racist) put me in the mindset that if we are who we can be, we can work the system for our favor. These are the two posts that I always come back to, that I think every new aspiring player should read. Actually, I think every man should be required to read this when he realizes his penis is for more than just peeing in the snow.

                        The commandments are the foundation of how to interact with girls. Rollo's year one, to me, is a life changer. I'm still figuring it all out, I'm hardly an expert, but I'm so glad I found it. My advice when it comes to these writers, read the comments too. Just know that when you see someone who has an opinion that you think may be a bit extreme, it probably is.

                        Which leads me to my question about reading materials.
                        I fucking suck at day game, cold approaches. If I have the slightest in, I'm fine talking up a girl. Even if it's cold, but she has something for me to comment on, something for me to base talking to her on, I'm ok.
                        But when I see the HB8+ walking down the street, and I have to go in blind, I'm a deer in headlights. The AA is killer. That said, I've been contemplating buying Roosh's day game book. Is it worth it? Are all the materials he writes about readily available here? Everytime I see a girl I want to fuck, and I say nothing, I take it hard. I want to have my pick, to have the chance to fuck who I want, when I want. Fuck low-hanging fruit. I want to be in control of who puts their mouth on my dick.

                        Have a great day fellas.


                        • #13
                          follow up to my last post.

                          a friend of mine recently let me read his Tao of Badass. it is exactly what i've been looking for. i find it to be a strong foundation to the other things i listed above, which i now consider to be great supplements. i've seen immediate results, as it was the how-to guide that i've been looking for.

                          for those guys that need things explained in an orderly fashion, such as myself, until they get the hang of it, i highly recommend checking this out.


                          • #14
                            A great thread on why you need to proceed to sex as soon as possible with a new girl. All new guys who can't seem to seal the deal need to read this, read the whole thread, it is full of good advice from guys who know the score.

                            From the Hall of Fame...

                            The older the violin, the sweeter the music. Augustus McCrae


                            • #15
                              Very good stuff, much obliged.