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OM trial after 12 years of monogamy...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by openwife View Post
    My jealousy has been a bit better. It takes an enormous effort on my part to not lose at times. If I don't think about it, it's fine. If I allow my thoughts to wander in direction of what my husband wants, what it feels like to him with another woman, what are they doing, etc I start feeling pain, anger, jealousy etc. I try so hard, but am able to only flex my willpower muscle to a certain extent... maybe I need counseling?? I don't know.
    You actually have 2 problems which are actually easy to fix. It takes time but it's fixable

    • Jealousy/ Possessiveness : This has to do with your social conditioning and upbringing. Growing up, society has always taught us that your boyfriend or lover is YOURS, meaning that you own him and no one else can have his/her love. This alone is the key thing you'll need to change. Your husband is NOT yours. He is a human being free to pick any life choice he wants/ free to do whatever he wants / free to be with whomever whenever he wants... and the time spent together is only by choice.

      Once you've accepted that you own no-one and that you're not entitled to anything from them, you no longer wait/ expect things from them and subsequently you can't no longer be jealous or possessive. It's a bit ironic... the more you let go, the less jealous/possessive you become and the happier you'll be
    • Activities/boredom / feeling left behind : You have more time on your hands. Use it and do more of the things that make you happy.. including anything sex related

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    • #62
      There are two aspects that usually get intermixed which causes most of the problems in "opening up" relationships. One is jealousy as a power game in which your partner spending time with others is a threat to your power over him. The other is the very real fear of encountering the situation in which your partner will simply be unable to organize his life in a way that he can satisfy your need and the need of his other "friends" in a good way. When I look at the few of my friends who tried open relationships or my own past, people usually fall off the golden balance on both sides: either they get too clingy or they tell themselves they aren't allowed to fear they won't represent such an important role in the life of your partner anymore that they'll spend enough time together to feel satisfied. So far me and my gf have resolved this by making sure we both know we're nr. 1 in priority to each other, meaning that if she realizes she needs more of me (or I do the other way round) it's a rational decision we took before any problems were even on the horizon that we'll first make sure to reconsider the situation between us and what it needs in terms of changes BEFORE making sure any of our other "friends" are satisfied as well. If you put this together with work issues and meeting friends and stuff, you might come to the conclusion that to have several lasting and satisfying relationships with women at the same time might be hard to construct long-term, which is the issue I'm dealing with at the moment.

      Please do yourself a favor and not forego the signals your body and mind give you about insecurities. Don't pre-design possible solutions and force your parter to stick to them, but find out the criteria for any to-be-found solution and then ask him to develop something fitting for you both together. If your partner is anything like my gf is, that should work well for you.

      Jester
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      • #63
        Thank you, Khali. I have heard of these before, and I am working on it.
        Boredom is a non-issue - I have too many interests to be bored.... I never am bored. There is so much to do/be/learn etc. I just enjoy my husband's company for as many activities as possible, even if we are just in our office together, working on our computers.
        Jealousy - yes. It's a work in progress. I am failing so far. Well, failing to achieve the results I want. I understand everything you said. I have attempted to at least get myself to the point of Neutrality - where I do not feel anything. That seems impossible when confronted, as I described below in post to Jester.

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        • #64
          Jester,
          You are right. I am trying to do this. Here is my issue, however: I become overly irrational and emotional when confronted with the notion of a potential "date" he is planning to go on. And at that moment all my resolve to respond calmly and rationally dissipates. No matter what we spoke of before, no matter how much love and appreciation and affection he shows me, despite all his (I think, what should have been potentially effective, retrospectively) attempts to assure me I am his #1, I lose sight of all that. I do desire his complete attention, I hate sharing his time, even though I understand I do not own him, and he doesn't own me. After all the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that there is a neurological pattern my brain has created in response to the given situation. Since my initial introduction to the whole idea of OM was so traumatic (although he did his best to be honest, yet gentle and loving), it was such a shock to my system that is focused solely on my husband, to the point of throwing up multiple times that evening, after hearing his proposal, I wonder if I have some slight form of PTSD? Is that possible?? I have been attempting to self-treat it by analyzing my own thought process, by recognizing my own fears and insecurities. I am better, but as I said, I have a long way to go. I am wondering if this is something I am able to fix myself...Thoughts??

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          • #65
            Originally posted by openwife View Post
            Jester,
            You are right. I am trying to do this. Here is my issue, however: I become overly irrational and emotional when confronted with the notion of a potential "date" he is planning to go on. And at that moment all my resolve to respond calmly and rationally dissipates. No matter what we spoke of before, no matter how much love and appreciation and affection he shows me, despite all his (I think, what should have been potentially effective, retrospectively) attempts to assure me I am his #1, I lose sight of all that. I do desire his complete attention, I hate sharing his time, even though I understand I do not own him, and he doesn't own me. After all the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that there is a neurological pattern my brain has created in response to the given situation. Since my initial introduction to the whole idea of OM was so traumatic (although he did his best to be honest, yet gentle and loving), it was such a shock to my system that is focused solely on my husband, to the point of throwing up multiple times that evening, after hearing his proposal, I wonder if I have some slight form of PTSD? Is that possible?? I have been attempting to self-treat it by analyzing my own thought process, by recognizing my own fears and insecurities. I am better, but as I said, I have a long way to go. I am wondering if this is something I am able to fix myself...Thoughts??
            I am a man and according to this forum I'm supposed to be much more rational than the average woman, but judging from experience rationality and irrationality seem to be much more like two different aspects of one's personality, like conscious and sub-conscious. Throughout their lives, people get hurt, be it by assaults or just by other people being uncalibrated, because they were caught in a weak spot or situation or for whatever reason. There seem to be three main reasons to deal with the hurt: denial, fight or acceptance. Denial would mean that you're trying to "not see" what has happened, and try to not get yourself into situations in which you are reminded of it. In your specific situation that would be you not wanting to hear about it, not wanting to be alone with your thoughts and rather trying to have other things to do all the time so you don't have to think about it. The second way to deal with it, fighting, is trying to force someone to change what has happened or what he's planning to happen. In your situation that would be to try to manipulate your husband to stop seeing other women, either by openly telling him to stop it or (much more common) by secretly plotting to make it impossible for him, sabotaging him and stuff. The third option (and granted, the hardest one), would be acceptance. It is to accept someone else (or yourself) has turned out to be surprisingly different than you expected, and allow yourself to feel through all the hurt that comes with it. You could say you have been dis-illusioned by the experience, and acceptance means letting go of the illusions you had about someone and discovering deeper layers of that someone.

            A few years ago I was madly in love with one of my ex-gf, and I figured because I loved her so much I wouldn't want to imprison her by telling her to not interact with other men (even sexually). After about 1,5 years I had to painfully find out how she had perceived that as me not loving, not needing her fully, and how she as a freedom-person had very much needed me to need her, to tell her I wanted her to stay by my side, because her whole life was a drifting one with nowhere she was really drawn to. These days she's having a relationship with some Indian guy she met in India and doesn't look too happy (he's probably too much of a needy guy now). It took me months to come to terms with what had happened, to fully understand and accept it, but now that I think I understand what had truly happened, I can accept it as a learning experience I had to undergo, as much as it had hurt me. Truth be told, I'm very thankful she hurt me that bad (not intentionally), because I probably needed all the hurt to convince me some of my perceptions about the world needed to change to make sense of all that had happened.

            If you become overly irrational, so be it. Don't fight it too hard. You might be approaching some inner part of you that is the core problem causing all this emotional turmoil. See it as the path you'll have to undergo to reach a healing site in yourself. Also don't hide it from your partner. I'm not saying freak out and scream at him, just admit you're hurting but that it's alright and it's not intentional to keep him from anything, it's just a fact you're hurting and you're feeling brave enough to discover the core. My gf is a student in therapy and we discuss a lot/I read many of her books. She told me that what sometimes happens in traumatic situations is that one dissociates experiences and kind of "splits" them from his own sense of self to survive, especially when something happens to you when you're very young yet. Most really bad issues one discovers about himself stem from those dissociated parts of one's personality, and they are really hard to "rationally" re-integrate simply because they often were formed in a time your rationality didn't even exist yet.

            There is quite a chance that the behaviour of your partner triggers some core-level traumatic experience within you that has nothing to do with his actual behaviour. The only way to find out is to allow yourself to feel what is bubbling up over time, and if it truly feels scary, it is a helpful precaution to get yourself some help to guide you through. It can work with really good friends or even your partner, but if you're confronting very deep core-issues that have formed at a very young age, you might not be able to fully control yourself, which imposes a chance to hurt someone that only wants to help you. Which is why for really deep stuff therapists and psychologists are there for you: they are trained to not take whatever you yell at them personally, and even if they do it's not that much of a problem because they aren't your friends and family.

            What seems an interesting hint is that you're writing your whole system is focused solely on your husband. Because if it truly is, losing him would obviously be a major shock to you. One could ask himself why you developed this pattern of focusing on one single person. I for example have somehow developed a pattern of not trusting anyone except myself to help me deal with difficult situations, and I'm pretty sure it has developed because I sensed my whole family being uncapable to deal with their own problems when I was a very young child so I took the adult role at like 4 years just to make my family survive (enabling me to survive as well). From that time (I suppose) stems my inability to trust anyone (especially not superiors) with difficult situations if they haven't proven they can be trusted first. It's stupid, sometimes it's even completely irrational, but in certain situations it still happens. Just to give an examples of how this works

            Jester

            P.S.: I'm no trained therapist, please keep that in mind. All I can share is personal experience and what I've picked up over the years in literature and experiences of others.
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            • #66
              Jester,
              I want to thank you for taking time to write all this out, I appreciate it very much. I will be pondering it. There is no one else I can really talk to about these issues. The only friend that knows about all this hates my husband for it. She is no use at all. I need support, I realized that very recently. I cannot make it by myself any more. Reading your thoughtful answer brought tears to my eyes, because I feel you care. Thank you.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by openwife View Post
                Jester,
                I want to thank you for taking time to write all this out, I appreciate it very much. I will be pondering it. There is no one else I can really talk to about these issues. The only friend that knows about all this hates my husband for it. She is no use at all. I need support, I realized that very recently. I cannot make it by myself any more. Reading your thoughtful answer brought tears to my eyes, because I feel you care. Thank you.
                It is a very common thing, but in my opinion also a very stupid thing to hate someone for who he is. Your husband being open to you about his desires for other women is (in my experience) a huge sign of trust and love on his part. Most men would just act on those desires anyway but secretly, lying to you and stuff. I have quite a few friends who are very much like your friend, and what they are trying to do is closing your mind so you'll only see the possibilities they themselves see. Truth is, there are endless possibilities to live your life and endless possibilities to handle relationships, but people are usually only used to think of a few categories and hate other people for showing them there might be different ways as well. The main reason seems to be that they don't want to question their own relationships (-> denial strategy). Your friend has chosen the second way to deal with a situation that's uncomfortable to her: forcing someone back to known ways "that work". Forcing people back into a few accepted ways will usually lead to at least some of the affected people having to supress part of who they are so that they can fit well enough for the systems to function. You might be able to force your husband back to repressing his desires somehow, but somewhere deep down he'll suffer for it, the worst hurt of all being the experience that even around someone he loves and trusts he cannot be his true self. The one thing every human being seems to seek in his life is to find someone to share unconditional love with. It's probably why the idea of spirituality/god and so on is a very strong one (I'm not claiming I know if god exists or not, just that this universal need of humans for unconditional love corresponds well with a loving god).

                Which is why I'm trying to promote truly looking at yourself and other people involved, the needs all these people have, and how to build a system of relationship that works to fulfill those needs as well as possible. I base my relationships of any kind on the needs of the people involved. Sometimes it's a freaking nightmare to calibrate these things because people are so used to thinking only in a few ways that it feels like work at times, but so far it's been very much worth it.

                At a very deep core many obstacles to not think in common relationship ways and become more creative is the question of "why am I loveable?". Am I loveable because I offer exclusivity? Is it because I offer the freedom to sleep around? Is it because I offer money/provider stuff? Becoming creative with relationships will sooner or later question all the answers you thought were real. For you the aspect of exclusivity might have been important, which is why your husband sleeping around might frighten you more than it would frighten me. If you follow through with that road, you might come to a place where you'll find no reason anymore why anyone should love you. It's a very lonely place to reach. But once you find that in this sweet spot there might be people who love you without you having to offer any reason, you might find a truth that can have enormous consequences for you: unconditional love does exist between people. Perhaps what your husband is asking you to do is to find out together if what you're sharing is conditional or not.

                Mind that there is a big difference between acceptance and tolerance there. Acceptance means accepting your partner with all his needs and desires fully as they are, but it does not mean you'll have to tolerate him acting out on all those needs without watching out for the needs of others. It's like with little children: their needs might be very real and important to them and you might understand them, but in some situations it's simply not appropiate for them to act them out right now. So as a parent or teacher you'll probably want to guide them so that they can express their needs without interfering with the needs of others. Like, "alright you can run around a little if you feel like it, but please do it outside of this music class so the others can sing on undisturbed". The same is true for your husbands needs: try to accept they are there and are part of his personality, but also don't forget to guide him so he can follow through with them without hurting you too much in the process. See your other thread for some practical advice on what I mean with that

                I'm at my girlfriend's place at the moment (she's at work) and I'm dealing with very interesting questions, such as: on what is our relationship based anyway? Because I seriously don't know anymore. She has another guy she regularily sleeps with, I got myself another woman I really like to spend time with as well, we see each other less than we seen our part-time-lovers (since we live quite far from each other), and still she's somehow nr. 1 for me. Perhaps because she simply accepts whatever bubbles up inside of me. I seriously don't know, and sometimes I struggle with the fact that rationally it doesn't make much sense to keep the relationship going. But I don't think I will break up with her, because she allows me to be whoever I'll find myself to be, something I wouldn't dare being without knowing of her existence and acceptance. It's a scary place to be in, and I know that for her it's just as scary, but it seems to be the only way available for us now that we've discovered so much about our true selves together.

                Jester
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                • #68
                  Jester,

                  As always, so much food for thought.

                  I would really be interested to hear your thought process as you continue pondering the value of the relationship with your gf. How did you arrive to this place of realization that she is #1 for you? And why do you allow the #1 to get less time with you than your peripheral relationships? And what would you call the other one, what connection do you have with her? Fb? Do you have any responsibilities towards either, aside from emotional support to your #1, as it seems that is the focal point of the relationship? You are quite self-reliant, almost yo a fault, possibly, and I wonder how then do you feel the need/desire for emotional support?
                  I am sorry if I am asking too much. Trying to understand you.

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                  • #69
                    You're not asking too much, you're actually helping me think this through. If I don't want to answer some specific points, I just won't, but so far I'm glad you're asking

                    About her being nr. 1: I've been interacting with another woman when I first met my current gf but soon realized that this wasn't just a random fling but something with the potential to go very deep. Since I've had some positive past experiences with somewhat open relationships it was clear to me I wouldn't want to accept exclusivity as the price to be with my gf, but this was quite easy because she had been in open relationships before (with one ex, this guy found out he was bisexual, mostly gay, and she was still accepting of it. Quite a woman!) and was willing to accept it again on my part. She had kind of a hard time trusting that I would really allow her to explore her sexuality as well because past experience told her that the men usually talk bit and still get jealous afterwards, but we kind of eased into the practical part after discussing theoretically and from experience under which conditions this might hurt us the least. There is some part of us that hates the idea of the respective other sleeping around and not being there 100% for each other, but we've found it to be a rather insignificant part, mostly because we both had experiences in that area before we even met each other. My ex-gf was kind of torn from the emotional turmoil of thinking of me and her current bf as equals in a relationship, so I've learned from that experience that regardless of the actual emotions it's very important for me to have clarity for myself who I belong to if needs are conflicting. It's kind of like the condition we asked each other, to try to not sleep with someone else if we didn't feel 100% sure about each other at that time, and so far we did quite well.

                    When I first met my now "secondary woman", it made me question things a lot again, because at the moment for example I a) see my secondary woman much more often than my actual gf, b) we have much more sex and c) even my friends see more of that woman than of my gf since my gf lives quite far from where I live. Following the usual criteria for how to define relationships, my gf must have kind of "lost the battle" to this other woman, but in fact they never really competed. With my secondary woman I share great sex and a close emotional connection as well, but at the core it's a somewhat conditional love still. She's jealous of my gf and she's jealous if I would go for other women I find attractive, which my actual gf is not. With my current gf we're kind of running through all the usual reasons why we think we are attracted to each other and we destabilize all of that. What stays in the end is the realization that it's probably truly unconditional love that's binding us together somehow. I have to admit that I'm having a hard time accepting this because it seems so counter-intuitive but it's not the sex that makes her my main gf but something much much deeper. This does go along with quite a few weird projections, for example since she's kind of taking in the role of a mother (giving unconditional love) sometimes issues I would have with my (dead) mother I'll project onto her which causes quite a bit of confusion. But it also allows room for quite interesting areas. Today for example I told her that at times I look at her and for a few moments I'm utterly disgusted by what I see. It's only for a few split-seconds, but it's there, and since we have created this room of unconditionality we can talk this stuff through now without having to break contact to protect our egos. Turns out I might be projecting part of what she herself feels in consequence of a weird childhood plus what my parents were dealing with sexually into situations that have nothing to do with the now, but since we created that space together now we can work through this shit instead of having to hide it and not let it show. There's no "alrigth so we're in a relationship which is why we'll have to feel or do X now". The connection is just there, and whatever comes up may bubble up. At times this is difficult to do, especially if other people like my parents or my sister (who don't know about my secondary woman) are trying to "help" by giving advice taken from their own experience. A few weeks ago I got really confused by what they were all saying and started questioning if this all made sense. But so far every time I was getting confused I got rewarded by a much deeper understanding of things later on.

                    To the question how I'd call my relationship with my secondary woman: I don't care how to call it really. I really enjoy her body, I really enjoy spending time with her and I try to do so as much as I can, plus I'm really curious about how she experiences raising her child since I'm a teacher and we talk about this issue a lot too. She's got a great and really dark humor that I admire about her, and to be honest I'd wish her to stay in my life for as long as possible, however long she can sustain it on her side because it seems to be much more difficult for her to accept the originality of the situation. In community terms it would probably go as "MLTR" although I truly don't care much about definitions, the only thing I truly care about is if I feel love for somebody and how to order my life so I can express that love accordingly without creating too many problems in all that.

                    I can be quite self-reliant, in fact I was from a very young age because I had to learn it to survive, but I really enjoy being with people and being part of a greater whole, so for me it's quite logical to search for others I can connect with. Plus it's kind of like a "meaning of life"-question that I believe the main point of being alive is to have a lasting effect on others, which one can do most easily in deep connection. Lately I've been wondering a lot about why I'm not that much motivated by doing things for my own benefit alone because it could be the effect of some traumatic experience stifling that core motivation, but so far that's just who I am. I don't care much about my own benefit, but I do enjoy it greatly to serve others or (even better) serve a greater whole.

                    Jester
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                    • #70
                      Jester,
                      More questions: you state that you are more interested in serving others than being self-centered, but isn't the nature of your relationships such that proves the opposite? Wanting to have it all? I imagine you see it as "serving" multiple women, though? That it's all about them?
                      Why do you not make more of an effort to see your gf more often?
                      What is the #2 really jealous of?

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                      • #71
                        Also, did I understand correctly- #2 is not seeing anyone besides you?

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by openwife View Post
                          Jester,
                          More questions: you state that you are more interested in serving others than being self-centered, but isn't the nature of your relationships such that proves the opposite? Wanting to have it all? I imagine you see it as "serving" multiple women, though? That it's all about them?
                          Why do you not make more of an effort to see your gf more often?
                          What is the #2 really jealous of?
                          This is turning out into some kind of two-way-dialogue now. But to your questions:

                          - I am stating what I currently discover as a "could-be-true" thing. I am starting to remember some things about my past these days that I seem to have burrowed very deep, mostly concerning my mother who has died almost 10 years ago and I always wondered why I never thought much about her. Used to pride myself for "being over it" so fast back then, but nowadays I wonder if "being over it" wasn't rather a poetic way of saying "I'm cementing whatever bad stuff happened not to disturb her death sleep". I seriously don't know at the moment. What I have noticed is that it seems to be very hard for me to motivate me to do anything if it doesn't benefit others or at least others additionally, not just me. I seem to have an almost complete lack of inner drive for personal satisfaction that isn't based on satisfying someone else and being satisfied myself using the indirect route of empathy. I can enjoy cleaning up my flat for example, but if I just think of it as being good for myself I'm not very motivated, while if I think of it as being good for both me AND my flatmates I can clean up regularily. Same for cooking and quite a lot of other activities as well. It's not that I don't enjoy a clean room or a nice meal I cooked, it's just that motivating myself to do something good just for me seems really hard for me for some reason. I do start to remember images of my early childhood nowadays how every time I used to do something out of my own satisfaction I would be stopped by my parents. In many ways it concerned sexual discoveries that are very normal for children this age (as I only later found out), but my gf told me how sexual energy is closely related to any other energy of lust and inner drive, and I can imagine myself having to lessen that drive a lot back then so my parents would think good of me (-> survival tactic).

                          I seem to have a very strong fear of being left alone whenever I'm not fulfilling the wishes of others, probably also instilled by actual childhood experience. I had to work hard and serve the family emotionally to get a small trickle of emotional support back, and when that proved to be too little, I had to learn to stabilize all my emotions by myself. To answer your first question, I suppose "serving" multiple women serves two purposes: to make them stay with me AND to distribute the risk of them leaving me because I wasn't strong enough to stabilize the whole thing by myself. Or at least I guess I started out like that somewhat.

                          A little later I slowly discovered that one drive I do possess is one of curiosity, to discover about people and their views of the world. I am very curious of how people perceive the world, how they interact, how they feel and how they can make me feel. I've realized that I cannot satisfy that curiosity by being with one woman alone. Plus in a rational way I realized that as soon as you accept terms for being in a relationship with someone, you'll automatically have a relationship that is based on conditional love (terms -> conditions). I wanted to discover the true beings behind the masks of everyday life, my own true being and the ones I relate with, and you cannot go that deep without reaching for true unconditional love. Which is accepting of someone feeling attracted to someone else too, which is accepting of everything that might bubble up, or else it would put the other one back into systems and images instead of being the real thing. In a way you could say I'm trying to love unconditionally to find someone who re-loves me the same way, and perhaps this is true, I don't know yet. What I know is that the passion for authenticity and discovery of how the world truly works is an authentic one. I have realized that I'd rather pay the price of hurt and emotional turmoil if it helps to get me closer to how people really are.

                          In the end it's probably about establishing deep and true connections between true beings beyond societal masks and norms. What irritates me a little though is that my gf tells me psychology says humans are basically attracted by the idea of pleasure and pushed away by the idea of pain while I've learned that usually to attain truth there is no way around hurting through to truth. It's somewhat about establishing truth or the mental/very real room for authenticity for me AND the people I interact.

                          Why am I not making an effort to see my gf more often? She has decided to study some special area that is only offered in one city of her country so far, and although she's very good at her field already intuitively, she'll need some "scrap of paper" to officially work in that area. One of my main goals in life so far has been to help better the education system in my country, and I've realized that in order to do that I'll have to work at least for a few years as a teacher in my country just to get the basic respect of other teachers to respect me as their colleague who knows their problems from own experience. I've been thinking about working closer to her place but I've realized it wouldn't help me get respected in my own country because the environment is kind of different there. Plus living in other countries for two years I realized the value of being close to my friends and family and it's kind of a hard bargain to put all that against being able to see my gf more often. It kind of sucks somehow, but at the moment it's how it is. We both haven't amassed much of any financial backups yet as well so for both of us it kind of makes sense to stabilize in that area as well, me in actually working an earning some money and her in investing in studying so she'll be able to earn money doing what she loves anway.

                          What #2 is jealous of is hard to say really, and at the core I guess she doesn't know herself. Part of it is probably that you're supposed to be jealous in that situation or something. She's having her kid and her kid's reputation to worry about though, so that probably affects things as well. She told me a few times now that she wants to end things because she can't stand the idea of me loving someone else beside her but so far she never did. She also told me that she had planned to make our interaction stay a ONS thing but kind of failed to do so because I was too nice to stay around so far. She's working on it though, so it might be over any time, but so far I had a background feeling that even if it did happen she'd be happy to reconcile a little while later.

                          Jester

                          Edit, because I saw the question too late:
                          Originally posted by openwife View Post
                          Also, did I understand correctly- #2 is not seeing anyone besides you?
                          Not to my knowledge at the moment, but if she wanted to I wouldn't mind. She was hinting an attempt a few weeks ago telling me she "almost" hooked up with an ex at a time when she was feeling kind of jealous towards my gf (I was on holiday with my gf at the time) but then realized playing the jealousy game would only result in her losing out since I don't really care much if she's into other men as well. When she realized it was kind of a jealousy plot and nothing more (she wasn't into that guy for real and her handle probably wouldn't work on me) she didn't go for it, at least that's what she was telling me about it. I don't see any reason why she should be lying to me about it though. I think since she has to handle time constraints because of her child deep down she's quite satisfied at the moment with spending time with me whenever she has some free time. Compared to some other men she told me about I must be quite a nice and satisfying experience, and not only sex-wise. Sometimes I have a hard time believing the stories women tell me about other men they've been with. I mean, where do they always find those weirdos? :P
                          Last edited by Jester; 11-01-2016, 05:09 PM.
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                          • #73
                            I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I can understand your thinking process better now. Nothing wrong with a two-way dialogue in my opinion... but we can cool it, if needed

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                            • #74
                              Honestly...

                              This guy (your husand) should feel nervous. Just if I'm keeping it real for him.

                              I saw this thread and couldn't respond until I'd read it all, because for me, the answer here isn't super simple at all.
                              I believe the guy is doing what I'd call passifying, meaning he is passifying your concerns rather than working through them with you.
                              I get the sense he is doing that cuz of his own immaturity and antsiness (cuz hes got a supporting wife, in theory, he's over eager).
                              Personally, there is no eagerness all that necessary, and rules are important to prtect self esteem.
                              Emotional bonds, create a certain link between a couples self esteem, and unless you build both people up to handle it open, you can unintntionally trigger each other.
                              On the other hand, it can be a good thing, add energy and a sense of liberation.


                              I mention he might wanna feel more nervous, cuz he's playing with fire in how he's going about it. (not the date, it seemed quaint enough)
                              One thing I know, is you don't try to go after women, when you don't know how, and think its going to be easy.
                              It will be easier for YOU to do the open relationship thing here, than him, WHEN you are emtionally ready.
                              And that for him could be a killer blow, cuz he might get left behhind in the dust, freak out, try to close it again.
                              But by that time, you are into it so won't close it.

                              He's not really thought it through. Maybe hes thought about needing it. But not about the realistic application of it.

                              THEREFOR
                              I'd say that this is an experimental phase of the open relationship, if I was him, "just so we can figure out aspects of it" and I'd not push you into uncomfortablle positions too much.
                              But he seems a bit dismissive of the concern of doing it right, cuz hes afraid he might not be able to do it at all.

                              You are obviusly creeped out by having less of a say in this than youd like, which tips me off to your possible, further liking of it down the road (more than him) and him becoming far more jealous than you are now.



                              Aaaanyways, thats what I think,
                              Personally,
                              Kisses and touching a persons butt on a date is nothing (even for a woman I deeply love)
                              But it wasn't always that way

                              I have such intense jealousy and envy, that I literally feel a pull of violence streak through me.
                              With time, I've grown to see that those I love are never able to be grasped... Only seen deeper and better. And by understanding them better I can reach them in my mind, and then bettter relate in person too. To reach them better in my mind, I've needed to get past my jealous streak. God was that fucking hard.

                              A friend of mine coined a phrase he called "the lazarus curve", and what this means is that in order to change another part of you sort of freezes up, gets worked n a while, then at the other end you unfreeze and come out with a new aspect of yourself that is reborn.
                              To get over jealousy requires a lazarus curve otherwise, what can happen is, your frozen part of yourself might be your resentment. If so, it will mean your resentment is what is about to evolve, and if it does (as there are indications of, the disgust etc) it will "frame out" your husband when it immerges inorder to "frame in" the new mindset of no jealousy.

                              THAT is why he oughta be nervous. And less passifying right now. He's playing with it, a lil too fucking lightly if I'm being honest.


                              As a seducer, I can see a few strategies to screwing him over as a competing male, cuz of how he is going abut this, with a HIGH likelihood of success.
                              a) use your fear of jealousy to create authority he lacks
                              b) use your pincered in position to blind you to any of my own pincer moves (I could pursue more aggressively cuz of this)
                              c) the high potential to pull on your "oh god yes" feels, and make you not care for several hours about your husband (once that snowball starts rolling downhiill you will start to learn how to frame him out very easily)

                              So, he's being daft.
                              I wouldn't hold it against him too much though.
                              Just remind him, that he shouldn't be shortsighted, and he too will face jealousy, and he might not be able to control it all, cuz YOU might not be able to control it all...



                              Hmmm... another thing I read in you is...
                              You are hiding a part of you he might resent and hate you for if you revealled it to him (maybe you know it?)
                              This part of you will unfold during the open relationship, most likely.
                              I think he's being oblivious to it, and it could burn him quite bad.

                              *sigh*

                              Look,
                              Its not just a question of your jealousy, it is a question of you feeling segregated. You don't want to feel that way cuz its fucking freaky.
                              And while he dismisses it, you see darker shit unfolding in you, that you don't know how should be channelled.

                              Personally, I used to channel it in ways to do good. (a lot of the men in here are parrotinng the idea that if you use dark drives for good, it can be a good thing, without entirely understanding it)
                              Basically, the dark side of us, is the side that weathers change and turmoil, by absorbing aspects of it and channelling it into passionate outlets. It is by its nature very hungry when let off the chain.
                              But it is also, in the case of women, very mothering/feminine.

                              So, when dark sides of you unravel you can guide it into protectiveness, as much as self gratification.
                              In this way you can better rationalise acts of sex by going about them in a more protective way, but while also letting out SOME of your fears.
                              THIS is prefferable to you framing OUT your husband. Or a man coming along, and helping you frame him out.


                              I dunno, he shouldn't be all jittery about this if he's got any serious intent for good coming from this, he has to sober up aa bit and see this as work and effort to get right.
                              Not just think its about your perception taking things lightly.

                              (shudders)

                              Nah, you are in part right to worry, you are protecting him in your own selfdenial kinnda way.
                              Only question is, when the self denial bit breaks off, what comes out of the darkness?

                              A sensual goddess, that knows how to protect.
                              Or a disillusioned girl who has fear and little else to guide her through


                              God it makes me sad, but not as sad as other peoples situations,
                              Things could definately be muuuuuch worse, you are in a fairly good spot options wise,
                              Don't fall for the societal illusion that life ought to be a happy cuple and that anythhing outside that isn't normal
                              No,
                              Life ordinarily is anything but that
                              S the fact you are close to that but have an open door to being able tto cultivate your darkness in the right way is a good thing


                              Just make sure the wrong parts of you aren't in the cucoon being fed by this jealousy and confusion, or you'll frame your husband out
                              You gotta feed wisdom of your darker self
                              Acknowledge a piece of your denial of self a little at a time, so it doesn't twist you up
                              So when you do unfold that sexuality, the husband doesn't have a heart attack, and you dont feel like a monster.
                              You need to understand its purpose in you, why shes chained up, and how she can behave when free.


                              My sexual appetite is like... a wild animal.
                              I used to have it on a leash. I'd let it bark and hold the leash back so it couldn't get to anything.
                              As I learrnt to unleash him for the first time, I taught him how to breathe, how to be present, to not chae, but sit like a lion... just exude awesomeness.
                              But, later on, I then tried to train it so I could go without any leash at alll, and basically there are times its a for real animal and just runs at stuff and is terrifying
                              I had to learn "control" of my unleashed self

                              These days, my inner animal he roams behind me, he won't run after anything, he's not on a leash,
                              And the only reason he listens to me, is I am fully intune with his lust, and capable of feeling his lust as my own and telling him to be patient.
                              This is no easy task... to do it you must be truly capable of holding burdens of future outcomes in your head all at once and quell the intense fear in less time than it takes for that animal lust to take over.

                              Once you can do this however, hormones no longer rule you when you unleash your sexual side, and you can act for ultimate good, protection etc with even the wildest part of your sexuality.


                              I have a feeling, if you did this, your husbands role might get minimised to some degree though, and he might be uncomfortable. Though such a thing shouldn't deter you. Not entirely.
                              So I honestly think he should be far more nervous than he is.

                              You are both green on this, and typically the danger is that frames go wrong, animals when unleashed can do all kinds of shit you never thought youd do, and you won't know ANY WAY AT ALL how to deal with it.

                              IMO, the issue is probably a bit bigger than just jealousy.
                              And the husband is being a little more insincere about this than he knows, because of his old insecurities and eg narrative.
                              It happens.

                              Like I said though, you are in a better spot than most, no need to get gahr!
                              Its very likely your husband gets demotivated by the difficulty of the open relationship.
                              SO BE PATIENT, both of you!
                              Not eveything has to be done RIGHT FUCKING NOW

                              Thats how mistakes get made
                              Just fyi

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                              • #75
                                Thank you for taking your time to respond. I appreciate your opinion, and I sense you are right on many things. I am working on myself, I am trying. I am trying to do this right, regardless of what he does/doesn't, I know there are things/situations to watch out for, and I think I am past the time of getting into a situation that I would not know what to do with. I would like to believe it, anyway. I will come out of this better and stronger.

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