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  • #46
    Originally posted by Salaam View Post
    Kit (and Cos), here's my 2 cents... maybe it can help
    When I used to think similarly to the above, it was because I didn't really understand what responsibility meant for myself, probably because I didn't have enough experience to feel the difference between responsibilities I freely chose and those I felt pressed upon by others to take... a self-authority thing, along with clarity, which is definitely something you should examine. We all have to at some point if we want to care for ourselves and be capable beyond a certain degree.

    yeah, this seems to be a common theme at people. I don't know where i stand on this scale, but for now it is ok.

    Personally, I freely choose to do my best, I take on that responsibility to care about the effort and energy I expend. I put in the time to see what I'm blind to, how I treat things, how I treat myself, and what directions I'm trending towards as I lead up to making the ceiling that is my "current best" better, richer, and more nourishing and healthy than ever before. I don't allow people past certain levels of intimacy and trust who don't share that same care.
    I recommend you nurture such a choice and line of thought and see if you feel the same way.
    I make this choice again and again, but it remains a choice for me.

    Meaning that when i don't feel like doing my best,
    I chose not to for a while and then clean up when I take responsibility again.
    Taking responsibility for your mistakes is the hardest thing to do but I guess I already know I accept that.

    When making a mistake seeing it as a mistake/an "easy" way out/ taking responsibility you know you don't need to take and accepting the consequences that may follow is what I do.
    Except when the consequences are unacceptable.

    Now the real truth I have had to realise a while ago was that sometimes you can't oversee all consequences and you can't oversee what consequences are unacceptable...
    that's what I am trying to come to terms with.. that I sometimes take risks I shouldn't take, by being wrong about the possible consequences....

    I try not to fuck up stuff without accepting that it can be fucked up,
    but it's hard to really know I will be ok with it long-term.

    If you know you can't accept that: dont make the freaking fucked up choice imo....

    I started writing something about this before, but stopped. It's very... intriguing to see which side of yourself writes which line, the Kit with her armor and bravado, and the one behind the mask (in parenthesis).
    haha it is the same person though. I think it's not like a "side", but more like a point of view/mood.

    The disconnect between the two makes me sad...
    It is surprising, yet understandable you see it like a disconnect. I think I dealt with too many people with too many different styles at some point the past years... (read from age 13)....
    That makes you adapt different styles / behaviors/ways to say what you want to say... but with the same core. (I think)
    I think the only way to truly be good with as many people as possible is to kind of... having multiple ways of being ready....

    I mean.. people talk about authenticity and stuff. I think one of the ways to be authentic and still do what is most profitable and/or makes you get along with most people is changing your point of view and/or reacting in a different "mode" by way of speaking. In that sense you are right.. there is like this "fun-no restrictions-no real rules - lets see what happens"-mode and the whole "lecturing"/"taking responsibility"/"being serious" mode... I think it has to do with expectations of others I tried to comply to. And me not recognising my own needs at a young age.

    but what also bothers me is how much you've chosen to surrender and give up on, that makes you believe the stuff you wrote above.

    Just like I told cosy: don't be sad. There is no reason to be sad.
    If at one moment I surrender, the other moment I fight. Right now i feel myself going from low to high to low and it's ok.
    It's just something you need to get through I suppose.

    I don't know. I think the moment you don't have an outlet is a kind of surrendering...

    You've really, really gotta be a little less trusting of your own bullshit (bullshit in how it limits you) and take care/be responsible for what you allow yourself to internalize and trust.
    this is very generalised, would you like to expand on "what you allow yourself to internalise and trust"?

    Poke some holes through it, lean on it a bit, and see if it still stands.
    no clue what you exactly would mean.. i mean, on a relative level i see what you are drawing, but what you would apply it to remains a mystery to me.

    Now this is just my view and it's very limited, but it feels to me that a lot of this stuff with the guy you call 0A, who I'll call Banana, comes up because being around him brings you into contact with some of the bullshit at the crux of these above two sentiments (what you wrote above). Yea, you and Banana have chemistry and a connection and there is a potential there, which keeps you from slipping into the numbing comfort of "it's a game", but beyond that point this is about you.
    lets forget about banana... I am tired of him for now.

    Even if somehow, everything was magically fixed for you to move forward in some way with Banana, you'd still have to face the non-bravado part of whether or not your capable of the levels of intimacy you crave, but are blocked from. You'll still have to go through those swings you feel around him, face the rawness of the intimacy there, PLUS deal with the failings unique to him that you would be helping him with as he helped you, that would determine whether this thing, could survive the unveiling of who you really are and can be with another by your side.
    there is no guarantee how far such a thing would go, but yes it would get there I suppose, if something like this with someone ever went that way

    You'd still have to stop "sucking" at how you treat those you're intimate with.
    What is intimate in your eyes? I personally think it's a phase of growth in your own vulnerability right now.. it isn't about physical intimacy, nor about sharing secrets or being always honest..
    I think right now it is about how daring you are to put yourself in a vulnerable position with the other, not about how much you talk, but about how much you feel while talking (for example)

    As Banana would have to do as well. You wouldn't be able to run away and retreat, then fall back into your comfort and coping mechanism of creating machinations about the intricacies of communication. Tension and seduction and all that stuff is great, but it's even better when it's a vehicle for authentic communication, rather than a distraction from points of development... now I'm not saying that's all that you do... I'm just saying that I feel that from you when I read your writing from my little place in the world. Which is probably similar to what Cosy is feeling when he talks about "you making this guy a part of your scheme".
    So you are saying i am not doing what I wrote down above I think is important... which is true
    seeing as you started about 0A: I didn't put myself in a vulnerable position with him earlier this year.. like in sept... I simply told him i wasn't putting myself there at that moment and he had to accept that choice..
    Truth is, I didnt want to see him hurt/sad/running away... Aka. I didn't trust him.
    he got a girlfriend somewhere between sept and oct/nov

    OH. => Cosy I have the feeling you would very much disagree about the vulnerable position, right or wrong?

    Intimacy and Emotional Closeness/Distance is an interesting thing. Life and how we respond and think and treat people is very different, depending upon the level of intimacy we have and what experience we have with it when it comes to our partners. You can fuck hundreds of people without knowing intimacy beyond a certain degree, without trusting and opening to them, and cultivating a space where things can be built together. It's scary sometimes and it can scar you, but it is something worthwhile and something that in time we can all be capable of. But it DOESN'T just magically happen. It requires we be capable in certain ways, certain ways that if you want to call them right or not, have to be there in order for it to survive. The guy can't do it all, we need help and you have to step up as well (and most guys fucking suck hard at truly stepping up as it is).
    uhm i didn't exactly get what you are proposing, although i can understand it partly. Did you say it is worthwhile to fuck without getting intmacy? cause the words are saying that, while I think you meant to say that intimacy can be scary but worthwhile.. with which I have to agree... Although I think it is not worth going towards intimacy when you know it is quite sure you will scar the other person or yourself.

    You're hanging your hat on a flimsy structure with the above, in my view.
    elaborate?
    Instead of right and wrong, how about healthy? Are you familiar with the concept of the Goldilocks Zone? It's the zone or confluence of certain conditions and how they connect and interact that creates a space for life to form up to a certain point of health or abundance. It's a very nuanced concept of balance in my view, that provides a platform for things, for life to be built upon and it applies not just to our planet Earth, but to ourselves and our relationships, to all of life.
    I can agree with health, but I think health is also a concept of trial and error for most people. Luckily we have so many people who did it before us that we know what we shouldn't try and the possible consequences often and have mentally understood the contexts by people we have seen.
    I am not familiar with goldilocks zone, but funnily I had organised something where some psychologist came to discuss with some students the importance of "taking care of yourself" and stuff like that.

    Now, it seems to me that you have no clear idea of what makes up your own personal Goldilocks Zone of Health and what is needed to improve it, so you fall into your usual pattern from the paragraph above.
    Can one ever truly know? But yeah.. right now and basically every other(most? lets not say every) moment of my life I have tried to find the right balance and miserably failed.

    The bravado crap to cover up the "I don't know what to do" feel, followed by flimsy logic.
    Here I disagree with you but I think you know that. Also I think you read some things differently than i meant when i wrote them... which probably is understandable seeing as my english and writing skills can use some improvement

    But what if you didn't keep repeating that bravado pattern and faced your developmental stress? What if you felt, recognized, and took on the conditions you personally needed and held on to them as you weathered the storm of stress and development? What if after a month or two they gained traction and really became important to you and something worth nurturing? What if they became a part of you, something you could feel and build upon, that you could carry with you forever as something you created?
    maybe you are onto something.. (or maybe not?) I don't know cause somewhere in this sentence i lost the meaning.... but that's not cause you wrote down something silly probably.. it's because i am tired as hell, and cause i recognised something without being able to say where to apply => "developmental stress"? I think the reason i lost attention is cause stress is exactly what I experienced too much these past weeks.

    What would your Spirit need to flourish in it's own personal Goldilocks Zone? How resilient would it have to be against the stressors that are currently keeping it from growing further? What level of effort and responsibility would you have to invest into it, BEYOND what you're currently doing now? In what ways are you neglecting it and how destructive is that neglect?
    Would your spirit need the clarity of understanding that this is NOT a game, this is YOUR life, and really all up to you? Could you grow to handle that?
    Uhm, I think you are focusing too much on that one. It's my life. But so what? there are billions lifes out there. I put out some goals to reach: that's cool . I will work for them.. but life is just that. Life.
    I am sorry if I am handing out a negative worldview with this part, but you were kinda going too far with talking about me neglecting and destructing life... while we are just a bunch of cells....
    (got the chance to cut in some dead body yesterday.. really fascinating. Guess that is where my humanity went to... what it's dead? so fascinating!)
    Ok now let me respect you a bit..., the quote above the "would... - .. that" ( the "what would... - that neglect?") what you mean is coming from a good place I understand. It's funny cause the psychologist of yesterday was also talking about this.. about how what would you need to flourish, what would you need to tell someone your secret etc etc etc... it was truly an interesting workshop. I just have done too many of these kind of exercises in the past year to react in a satisfying way or to be willing to think about it more, cause the conclusions I reach remain the same over and over. Guys have never been my priority.... being healthy is though.

    Sorry, but this sentence doesn't even make sense and it's a shitty conclusion to come to, to dismiss something so personally important to yourself as this. It is destructive to neglect the structure of how you choose to live. To believe otherwise is bullshit, that has hurt you and will keep hurting you and others, the more you perpetuate it. You have a pattern of behavior that is pervasive enough in your life that I've picked up on it running in your process at least two times in a single post that derails any shift into a space more conducive to health and growth. This is a pattern that you've created, that you perpetuate, nurture, and are responsible for right now. You're spirit is standing on the thing and you know how satisfying that currently is for you. That platform as it currently is, won't allow you to build much of anything around this point till you face this and I think you feel that to be the case when the stress doesn't allow you to cover it up.
    I want to recognise it. I don't know what it is you see, I just want to get rid of the abnormal stress. I do want the moodswings cause I remember a moment without any emotions and it was no fun. I remember wanting my emotions back.
    Can you help me what you think you see? Maybe perhaps that is it, I don't know.

    You've gotta face that honestly, for yourself. You've gotta see the mud, so you can stick your hands in and shift things around. Personally, I search all the time for facets like this in my life. My patterns of assholery and crapness, that I can heal and shift so who I am is a better place to be. It's actually a great thing to be aware of when you think about it, or at least something you might be thankful for, later on down the line.
    uhuh, nice.

    I know it's hard, but it can be done and it is much better to do it, then to muck around. I used to be there too with my armor and my failings that I all to often avoided. I'm by no means perfect, but I have built something beautiful out of my shit that can stand on it's own and enjoy continuing to do so. It's precious and wonderful and soooooo worth it.
    goooood.

    Anyways, I hope my ramblings help. I've got a fever and writing more is giving me a headache.
    lol.. it seems to be the season for it..

    Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
    Ok,
    Just to dial it back a few notches and clarify,

    I think the way to start observing and or overcoming really numerous and ambiguous results is to develop a reliable process.
    No one can overcome any obstacle in a day.

    So... considering permissiveness is a tough issue, I think it could help to maybe just focus on one thing at a time, or dabble in a few things to get some perspective.
    thanks cosy

    My advice would be to just not ignore those things exist though just cuz its hard, but instead to stay in the game, keep your head on straight, not give up before you try and to just try to figure out what you can.
    ok thanks.

    I doubt its going to be easy to figure out, I haven't figured it out yet either, so... yeah.
    simply lol.
    I think it just requires some patience and perseverance.
    I am trying..

    Also maybe some forgiveness of yourself for when you might muck it up, cuz, its tough.
    But ultimately, its a good idea to not bury or ignore concerns, cuz they don't go away.

    Ok cool.

    edit1: don't count the amount of I in these posts.. it's over the top... sorry for that ;(

    edit2: ofcourse.. since i encouraged you guys not to.. I had to: you = 66, I = 86...

    edit3: wow my ex "fbuddy" is tryiing and trying and trying to get me to meet with him and I am saying no.. and no and no... why does he keep trying?

    Guess I should have been honest and not kept in touch + never have kept in touch or accepted him saying that he couldn't let go of people and I could... cause apparently it's true ? :')

    Thought it wouldn't be an issue for me to keep in touch with him, but right now it feels like an issue.

    edit4: said no again obviously.

    I just had to edit this cause cosy, you said something about conquests and not giving credit. But usually i don't see guys as conquests,except when engaging with others.

    To be honest, I think I am female/pretty/nice enough to not be able to actually be allowed to be "proud" of "conquests" with the amount of guys that would want sex, BEFORE actually engaging. I mean.. the last time even the professor here was FLIRTING. Almost every freaking conversation with someone from the male gender seems to have some sexual subcontext since I turned 13. Therefor I believe I am more likely to be failing at "conquests" instead of having "conquests" lol.
    Last edited by Kit; 03-04-2016, 04:44 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Ha, you're cool with the amount of I's, this is a writing about you and how you feel of course, plus it's introspective. I get it though, I wonder about that too, and look for opportunities to change "I" to "We" when writing to include others in the experience

      Originally posted by Kit View Post
      I make this choice again and again, but it remains a choice for me.

      Meaning that when i don't feel like doing my best,
      I chose not to for a while and then clean up when I take responsibility again.
      Taking responsibility for your mistakes is the hardest thing to do but I guess I already know I accept that.

      When making a mistake seeing it as a mistake/an "easy" way out/ taking responsibility you know you don't need to take and accepting the consequences that may follow is what I do.
      Except when the consequences are unacceptable.

      Now the real truth I have had to realise a while ago was that sometimes you can't oversee all consequences and you can't oversee what consequences are unacceptable...
      that's what I am trying to come to terms with.. that I sometimes take risks I shouldn't take, by being wrong about the possible consequences....

      I try not to fuck up stuff without accepting that it can be fucked up,
      but it's hard to really know I will be ok with it long-term.
      Ah, I feel you. It always remains a choice for me as well, all my responsibilities are choices I make again and again, there is no outside authority or pressure pushing me to take this on. But, anyways the crux of what we may be talking about here is Vision I think. Balancing what you can see based on your assessment of a situation, with the things you're blind to, and the things you don't even know you may be blind to (the distinction between "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns"... kind of mind-fucky I know, but important to eventually understand).

      An example of the second one for instance, would be knowing that acting on what you feel like doing or not doing is not always the best indicator for long-term satisfaction and it must be calibrated and better developed. There are things beyond the immediate that our emotions aren't catching, because they're "blind" and not giving feedback on whats beyond that next corner. So a big example for me was in dealing with depression in the past. By developing ways to better take care of myself I came to the understanding that depression has what I call a "two-step hustle" where it hits you with a feeling of comfort that we allow/internalize/trust and then follows up with despair and surrender (the feeling of "it's okay to want to just give up and not struggle anymore" like I imagine it feels like to die from cold exposure). I realized that for so long I was getting tricked over and over again by that first feeling of comfort and had to account for my blindness. Since doing that, I haven't felt the surrender feeling in over 2 years, because I successfully weaned myself away from giving into that comfort feel. I don't just automatically trust and allow myself to run with feelings. I contrast them with my experience and understanding of how things work together. While also working to become more sensitive to differentiating everything that's going on and grounding myself so I act on the emotions that fit my direction rather than being influenced by lousy patterns of nature. Anyways, the "unknown unknowns" is not so much about accounting for what those things may be in a moment, but sheltering your connection with potentiality so it doesn't get shrouded by false certainty. Staying humble and open and connected with the context, so you can eventually uncover what some of those unknowns may be.

      Originally posted by Kit View Post
      haha it is the same person though. I think it's not like a "side", but more like a point of view/mood.

      It is surprising, yet understandable you see it like a disconnect. I think I dealt with too many people with too many different styles at some point the past years... (read from age 13)....
      That makes you adapt different styles / behaviors/ways to say what you want to say... but with the same core. (I think)
      I think the only way to truly be good with as many people as possible is to kind of... having multiple ways of being ready....

      I mean.. people talk about authenticity and stuff. I think one of the ways to be authentic and still do what is most profitable and/or makes you get along with most people is changing your point of view and/or reacting in a different "mode" by way of speaking. In that sense you are right.. there is like this "fun-no restrictions-no real rules - lets see what happens"-mode and the whole "lecturing"/"taking responsibility"/"being serious" mode... I think it has to do with expectations of others I tried to comply to. And me not recognizing my own needs at a young age.
      Yea, we can still be authentic, while being multi-dimensional. But, like you might have been alluding to what that last bit, it's good to check in on which side we're showing and being and what for. It's one thing to switch how you come across to maximize the effectiveness of what you've chosen to communicate, but another thing to choose a side of yourself purely to suit outside expectations (not saying you are of course). Choices like that often lead to people looking into the mirror later on down the line, wondering who they've become. I believe it's in our best interest to make sure who we are is our choice, even if it contains an element of risk and the possibility of outside resistance. Back to that self-authority thing and maintaining traction with it.

      Originally posted by Kit View Post
      Just like I told cosy: don't be sad. There is no reason to be sad.
      If at one moment I surrender, the other moment I fight. Right now i feel myself going from low to high to low and it's ok.
      It's just something you need to get through I suppose.

      I don't know. I think the moment you don't have an outlet is a kind of surrendering...

      Well, have you ever been out in the cold and snow for so long you're hands were freezing? If so, have you ever came in and put your hands under room temp. water, only for them to feel hot as shit? See, everyone would say that water was cool, but to you, because you were already so cold, that water was hot as hell. That's because what we feel is not just based on what we're experiencing in that moment, it's that PLUS the contrast between where we currently are. The feel is in the space between all these things interacting.

      So, we feel sad because our contrasts are different for your surrendering. For you the feeling is "no big deal" like room temperature water, but Cosy and I have a more intimate understanding and sensitivity with what you're actually facing (him more so). So instead the water of your surrender makes us feel sad, like the hot feeling on frozen hands.

      This is a very important concept to keep in mind, especially when you consider most people grow up around others that only know the room temperature feel of surrender and other shitty things, because you have no one in the room saying, hey I just gained this experience that is showing me this shit is not as okay as it appears to be... I hope that makes sense.

      I've gotta dip out, so I'll answer the rest later, but one thing about health. To me health is about, are you doing things that make you more capable or less capable? And the goldilocks zone is the area where we are at our most capable within our current level of development. Where our capabilities work to synergize with each other, rather than conflict and negate each other.

      Comment


      • #48
        Hmmm, I'll put the below in quotes cuz it is probably not the right thing to say to you (too directly against things to be constructive)
        But I'll post it cuz, why not (you can handle it)

        A lot of your issues are really clear/coherent to me in this thread.

        :/

        There are no actual solutions to any of these things in the way you are explaining them (you imbed no-solution into it)
        And you kind of manipulate/cannive towards the end of "see its too hard to try" (because you feel under pressure)

        And the part that really stands out is that, you feel stuck under pressure and want easier routes to get you through



        You don't know it, but thats actually the problem
        Trying to solve this stuff in an easier way, leads to corruption of principles, and that undermines integrity and as a result you can't reach beyond where you are because you waffle too much (it is like a shakey ladder, if you don't hold it down it gets dangerous if you climb too high, and you risk it slipping out from under you).
        You don't realise it, but you are actually complaining about a lack of reach (it is solved with integrity, otherwise, the ladder shakes too much).

        *sigh*

        You have an attitude though. Cuz if anyone says "this is how you reach" you snarl and go back to the easiest habit. Which goads people to ignore your problems and to avoid that aspect of your personality. It also leads towards you wanting to sheppard people into this "box", where they feed a certain part of your ego, and are not free intellectually to oppose your values.


        I personally don't like your values as they are, which might offend you, but I have reason for it (I feel no need to press it too much... mostly).
        I've seen stuff you haven't, know loads of thinngs you don't, and have carried responsibilities and burdens most don't (some do).
        And I think you just dismiss people who might have that edge on you, cuz you have that boxing attitude, and it frustrates, because you trade real people's value and experience for "the easy path" after a snarl. And of course the snarl implies to people that you take joy in simplifying them, or taking from them their experience and perspective.





        It is a complex issue in truth though, so I am rather perplexed


        Fiona is talking about "love" here, but its a related idea,

        A person becomes overwhelmed by complaceny until it minndfucks them into feeling "grabbed at", so they put up fists

        In "love", it is a more complex affair, but in life it is a bit simpler

        The social prizes, seduce you into complacency, and they stop you from growing as an INDIVIDUAL
        Stop you from being free, and thusly possess you


        Fiona here wants to be "free in love",
        But also in life you have to really work through your issues, not just accept them as they are and mope at the results

        Do you get what I kinda mean?
        I don't like addressing people's issues directly, its pretty freaking weird
        But you have to know that when you have THESE kinds of issues, there are no magic pill answers or guru masters who can solve it for you (nor perfect guys out there who can untangle it)
        The only resource you have, is people who say "look out, we can see it, its mind fucking you"

        It is YOUR job, to take care of that resource, not take it for granted



        Its like guys in relationships, we often take attractiion for granted, the girl starts to think we don't participate (usually its true)

        That isn't a GOOD THING, or something to boast about, or smugly brush over
        You have to consider that as an issue it is very important
        Otherwise no one will take you seriously, and you won't develop as a woman really (which I hope you do *but also know you won't if you just follow the path your ego has convinced you of, with all that snarling/dismissive bullshit*)

        I dunno what your exact path should be... but I'm smart enough to see, you are more stuck than even you know.


        That said,
        Of course no one has the answer for YOU.
        But...Some strategies kinda suck bad if you want to find one for real.
        A strategy of criticising men, being permissive, then dismissing realities of men for convenient effect just seems...
        Like a lack of measured foresight to me.

        It is possible to get beyond your current struggles, no doubt, I know women who have.
        It is always a strange and twisted path though, never one you can really plan or bulldoze through.
        Just try to be self aware, cuz as tempting as it seems to take creditt for everything you do, it has a nasty edge to it too.

        Far better to float to the top sometimes, than to fight.


        I know I don't say it right.
        But if I could, I'm sure it would help.
        Last edited by thecostofsuccess; 03-05-2016, 10:13 AM.

        Comment


        • #49
          (That post above is badass Cosy, it helped me with some things)

          Okay, back again.

          So, what is this all about? We're not talking about right or wrong, we're talking about health and capability. We're talking about how to take care of yourself in a deep, nuanced, balanced, and multifaceted way. How to be capable so you can build, beyond what nature and society would give you if you remained passive and accepted things as they are. Things as they are for you, are not enough, they have to be developed (we all have to develop them for ourselves). I hope you can agree with that.

          Originally posted by Kit View Post
          this is very generalised, would you like to expand on "what you allow yourself to internalise and trust"?

          no clue what you exactly would mean.. i mean, on a relative level i see what you are drawing, but what you would apply it to remains a mystery to me.


          This is about developing a practice and standard for yourself, when it comes to what you believe and internalize. Understanding that we all have things we carry inside us as truths and conditions for life, that need to be modified and re-developed. If we do honestly understand that, then we realize we have to develop a practice that is responsible for filtering in-coming beliefs, filtering already held-beliefs, and moderating the behaviors, thoughts, and directions these mistaken beliefs might propel us towards (while protecting our spirit for openness). All the time, people and ourselves are going through life validating and confirming some beliefs, and invalidating and replacing others. If we care about taking care of ourselves, then it's vital that we shelter the healthiest beliefs from invalidation and become aware of those unhealthy beliefs that our current and flawed way of living is perpetuating that is limiting us and miring us in bullshit. We give the healthiest beliefs the time and attention they need to grow and mature and inter-connect, so they create an ecosystem of beliefs inside you, that become your perspective or view on life.

          The thing is though, internalized beliefs can be hard to hold and review. Especially, when they're deep within us, validated over and over again in our past, probably in our childhood, from people who really didn't know fuck all about properly living life. So often time you'll catch them after the fact or read them in your words and you would be best served to develop a habit of questioning and poking at them to see how strong they stand up to scrutiny. Cosy's given you some great things to test against in his above response. Am I believing this just because it's easy? Is this the only way or is there an alternative? How much of this belief is really the result of a pressure or stress I couldn't handle at the time? Do I believe this just because everyone else does? How does my actual experience contrast with this truth? Is this answer really what I need, or is the solution found within developing things inside me that creates a change? Am I allowing space and patience for such a change or am I crowding it out with hastily drawn conclusions?

          Originally posted by Kit View Post
          What is intimate in your eyes? I personally think it's a phase of growth in your own vulnerability right now.. it isn't about physical intimacy, nor about sharing secrets or being always honest..
          I think right now it is about how daring you are to put yourself in a vulnerable position with the other, not about how much you talk, but about how much you feel while talking (for example)

          So you are saying i am not doing what I wrote down above I think is important... which is true
          seeing as you started about 0A: I didn't put myself in a vulnerable position with him earlier this year.. like in sept... I simply told him i wasn't putting myself there at that moment and he had to accept that choice..
          Truth is, I didnt want to see him hurt/sad/running away... Aka. I didn't trust him.
          he got a girlfriend somewhere between sept and oct/nov

          OH. => Cosy I have the feeling you would very much disagree about the vulnerable position, right or wrong?

          uhm i didn't exactly get what you are proposing, although i can understand it partly. Did you say it is worthwhile to fuck without getting intimacy? cause the words are saying that, while I think you meant to say that intimacy can be scary but worthwhile.. with which I have to agree... Although I think it is not worth going towards intimacy when you know it is quite sure you will scar the other person or yourself.


          What is intimacy? That's a deep question, let me think about it for a bit and see what I can truly write that will give it justice. For now though, I'll say it goes way beyond what you mentioned. Those are things that go into creating and maintaining intimacy, but what about all that comes after intimacy is healthy and alive between two people? The things that can be built and experienced together, that can only come about when intimacy crosses certain thresholds of depth and flavor. How that adds to your life, your wants, and your vision of the future. How deep down, it's not just about you anymore, but "we" and how that shared space grows and evolves in your life.

          Anyways, the main point is that there is way, way more for intimacy to show people than what they might think and sex alone or volume of partners is not enough to get a person to those experiences. That doesn't mean sex without those levels of intimacy is bad or a waste. It more means, to keep an open mind and a courageous spirit that can dream beyond our current fears and doubts. To avoid falling into complacency and instead remember there is more to reach and experience, beyond what we currently feel.

          Originally posted by Kit View Post
          I can agree with health, but I think health is also a concept of trial and error for most people. Luckily we have so many people who did it before us that we know what we shouldn't try and the possible consequences often and have mentally understood the contexts by people we have seen.
          I am not familiar with goldilocks zone, but funnily I had organised something where some psychologist came to discuss with some students the importance of "taking care of yourself" and stuff like that.

          Can one ever truly know? But yeah.. right now and basically every other(most? lets not say every) moment of my life I have tried to find the right balance and miserably failed.

          Here I disagree with you but I think you know that. Also I think you read some things differently than i meant when i wrote them... which probably is understandable seeing as my english and writing skills can use some improvement

          maybe you are onto something.. (or maybe not?) I don't know cause somewhere in this sentence i lost the meaning.... but that's not cause you wrote down something silly probably.. it's because i am tired as hell, and cause i recognised something without being able to say where to apply => "developmental stress"? I think the reason i lost attention is cause stress is exactly what I experienced too much these past weeks.
          Yea, we do have people who came before us, but they were only able to create so much and there is an edge, where collective human understanding has reached, and beyond it where there is still more to learn. Things that will change and re-orient what is commonly accepted/trusted from those who came before. But who is going to do that? All we can be for each other when it comes to the information we share is a reference. We still have to involve ourselves with the process and gain the experience for ourselves to truly understand. If we don't we will never have any real degree of self-authority, because we will never have the experiences inside us to contrast off of and balance out our imagination... instead all we'll be able to do is follow the words and experiences of others, unable to distinguish between how much of what they tell us is reality or supposition.

          So what that means is yes, you have references from others, but it won't be enough. We have to balance those references with our ability to intuit and build information on our own, into a view that is sturdy enough to build with, yet open enough to adapt to change and new information. Which, is something you feel you've failed at miserably so far. Everyone around us fails at it, our society and parents have failed at it, and not only do we have to build our own, we have to heal or decontaminate the things the people before us have gotten wrong. It's a brutal task, but I don't tell you that to make you feel better, but in an attempt to show you how deep and patient we must be with such a thing.

          You asked if anyone "can ever truly know", and I say both yes and no. I say "no" to your actual question and it's idea of an ultimate knowing, because that idea of an ultimate or complete knowing is a mistake of conceptualization humans make, because they can't handle the stress of holding in their mind, all the dynamics needed for the real understandings that would show the flaws inherent to asking such a question. But, people who ask that question don't realize that, just like they don't realize that they've reacted to that stress by over-simplifying all those moving parts into a singularity. A shortcut, that like Cosy mentioned in his response to you, which makes it so "There are no actual solutions to any of these things in the way you are explaining [or asking] them (you imbed no-solution into it)". The yes on the other hand, is to a better question, which is can we over time build from experience things worth trusting that bring cohesion and synergy to our view of the world and the way it moves, while balancing the pressures and pitfalls involved with forming such a view?

          At one point you mentioned that you may have lost the meaning or thread of what I was talking about because you were stressed from the week and tired. I bet you probably feel similar stress or confusion when reading Cosy's posts too sometimes. Part of the reason why, is because of all the pressures that had to be faced for us to write an idea with such nuance and depth. In order to fully grasp what we're saying, you'd have to handle those stressors as well and hold against your mind's attempt to over-simplify and dismiss the nuance and dynamics involved. Plus, even if you did all that, you would only be able to form understandings on that information that your current level of experience would allow. Most people don't do that though, instead they lash out and dismiss the content or pander with fake understanding to cover up their ignorance. I know this well, because I went through all of that shit when learning myself. I often re-read stuff from Cosy from a year or more back and I'm always amazed by what I pick up with new eyes. It's happened enough times that I don't fall into the shit responses to this stress, but instead do the best I can with what I can understand while keeping in mind that there is so much more to return to. All the while, balancing that understanding with my own self-capability to develop so I can understand for myself, rather than seeking answers to relieve myself from the pressure of lacking more confirmation and clarity on my ignorance. It's hard to do, but it's something you develop into, it doesn't happen over-night, so take your time and be gentle on yourself.

          You feeling that developmental stress yet? It's what I call the stress of learning and growing. The stress of training yourself to think in degrees instead of absolutes, to pace yourself instead of impulsively racing ahead, to question yourself instead of blindly trusting, to face the stress of new experience instead of the comforts of habit or delusion or quick conclusions, to face the stress of our ignorance and lack of clarity as we keep an open-mind, and to face the contrast stress between how capable we are and how capable we need to be to make even more progress. And of all that stress I think Beginner Stress is the shittiest portion of that whole process.

          Originally posted by Kit View Post
          Uhm, I think you are focusing too much on that one. It's my life. But so what? there are billions lifes out there. I put out some goals to reach: that's cool . I will work for them.. but life is just that. Life.
          I am sorry if I am handing out a negative worldview with this part, but you were kinda going too far with talking about me neglecting and destructing life... while we are just a bunch of cells....
          (got the chance to cut in some dead body yesterday.. really fascinating. Guess that is where my humanity went to... what it's dead? so fascinating!)
          Ok now let me respect you a bit..., the quote above the "would... - .. that" ( the "what would... - that neglect?") what you mean is coming from a good place I understand. It's funny cause the psychologist of yesterday was also talking about this.. about how what would you need to flourish, what would you need to tell someone your secret etc etc etc... it was truly an interesting workshop. I just have done too many of these kind of exercises in the past year to react in a satisfying way or to be willing to think about it more, cause the conclusions I reach remain the same over and over. Guys have never been my priority.... being healthy is though.
          Yea, your rapport with the world and life is off here. Rapport is also something that we have to balance and manage if we want to be better in taking care of ourselves. My rapport used to suck, because I was so overly analytical and that flaw would have me thinking like you are once I broke things down into parts. You can't let yourself so break things down into parts that you lose the motion and activity (the LIFE) they have with each other. The reason why is because there is still Life there, there is still motion and activity that because you are not seeing, your emotions are not responding to, making you relate in an asshole way to things that still matter and should be accounted for. It's super easy to discard things and ignore things if you don't recognize and appreciate them, but unfortunately much harder to pay attention to how you're relating to things.

          One of the biggest things that helped me the most with this was understanding that everything is alive or active. Which basically meant, that everything, no matter how small, has a chemistry and connection with me that creates an influence and feel, plus everything has a conatus or direction they are trying to move towards (whether enacted consciously or not). That "dead" body may not be human level active/alive, but there are still electrons and protons and shit, swirling around and doing their thing, to maintain this form that is a "dead" body. Understanding this keeps my emotions from going flat, because I'm avoiding the pitfall of telling it "there is no life here". I've seen what happens when I let my emotions believe that and I've seen what happens when people allow that feeling to attach to people. When people become lifeless objects in the minds of others... I think you know first hand what it's like to have an asshole to try treat you like an object, so fuck that shit. Guard against that please.

          I wonder if this flaw originally came about in people because they couldn't handle the emotional stress of things breaking down, so their emotions would get distant and close-off to protect them? Unfortunately it became too easy a short-cut and spread out to other circumstances... shit sucks and scientist types often fall prey to it. I'm thankful to have become aware of it and removed the habit from my pattern.

          Originally posted by Kit View Post
          I want to recognize it. I don't know what it is you see, I just want to get rid of the abnormal stress. I do want the mood swings cause I remember a moment without any emotions and it was no fun. I remember wanting my emotions back.
          Can you help me what you think you see? Maybe perhaps that is it, I don't know.
          Yea, there are times when I had to fight for days to get my emotions back and I've worked for years and years to be able to manage my emotional distance with people (closing off too easily). I've changed and grown so much and you can too in time. Try and read all this stuff from Cosy and I, then pay attention to yourself and your thoughts about things. Feel the pressures and stress, while realizing that giving up in the face of them will net more of the same frustration, but also while understanding that a step at a time of handling all that stress, will get you somewhere better, even though it's impossible to see and feel that to really be true.

          Personally, what got me through a lot of that in the beginning was being fed up at being pushed around in my own body by the world and nature. I wanted more than this bullshit and I can feel a better way existed, even if I couldn't recognize it. So I fought and worked... but that's my way and your way will be your own to discover.

          Fuck, that was a lot of thinking. Lol, hopefully some of this makes sense to you. And sorry if it's overly intellectual/analytical. Like I said before, I'm still working on my rapport with things and balancing out that part of my nature, so it still comes across in my writing.
          Last edited by Salaam; 03-08-2016, 03:20 PM.

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          • #50
            I am thinking what you guys said over... together with some other stuff... just going to write down the other stuff so I don't need to think it over right now

            My mom always complained how I bent over her and other people to my will.. instead of following the rules or giving up what I wanted... I would convince them to follow or do what I had in mind for them when it suited my goals.
            Acting like I deserved it (and I actually believed I deserved it) (still belief?).. somehow I still think I am entitled to break the rules if it is logical, but worse. . I get upset when someone goes like "but this is the rule".. why? Cause it''s not fair from my point of view and it benefits me and it doesn't hurt another person directly. Some people somehow can't stand that. And I can't stand them for that. Someone a while ago asked me who I don't like.. guess I finally found my answer.. I don't like people who follow rules cause it's a rule and who disrespect rulebreakers.

            But that means I just do what pleases me and expect others to please my ideas and goals as well.. even though I know their wishes don't necessarily align.. then apparently I try to change/override their wishes.. I didn't even realise I can be like that sometimes, but today with a bad mood : yes I see it.
            I almost tried to guilt/make someone pity me in giving me a place for an internship... that's not OK in my eyes, even though I occasionally do it without realising it which is OK in my eyes

            Is that what you meant with manipulation Cosy?

            and my mom disliked that ... my always putting my wishes first.. but she enabled it as well. and I think it''s true.. nowadays I expect other people bend over to my will and get upset if they don't... not that it''s always like that.. but yeah when breaking rules or when I really want something I really don't care about fucking over other people.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Kit View Post
              I am thinking what you guys said over... together with some other stuff... just going to write down the other stuff so I don't need to think it over right now

              My mom always complained how I bent over her and other people to my will.. instead of following the rules or giving up what I wanted... I would convince them to follow or do what I had in mind for them when it suited my goals.
              Acting like I deserved it (and I actually believed I deserved it) (still belief?).. somehow I still think I am entitled to break the rules if it is logical, but worse. . I get upset when someone goes like "but this is the rule".. why? Cause it''s not fair from my point of view and it benefits me and it doesn't hurt another person directly. Some people somehow can't stand that. And I can't stand them for that. Someone a while ago asked me who I don't like.. guess I finally found my answer.. I don't like people who follow rules cause it's a rule and who disrespect rulebreakers.

              But that means I just do what pleases me and expect others to please my ideas and goals as well.. even though I know their wishes don't necessarily align.. then apparently I try to change/override their wishes.. I didn't even realise I can be like that sometimes, but today with a bad mood : yes I see it.
              I almost tried to guilt/make someone pity me in giving me a place for an internship... that's not OK in my eyes, even though I occasionally do it without realising it which is OK in my eyes

              Is that what you meant with manipulation Cosy?

              and my mom disliked that ... my always putting my wishes first.. but she enabled it as well. and I think it''s true.. nowadays I expect other people bend over to my will and get upset if they don't... not that it''s always like that.. but yeah when breaking rules or when I really want something I really don't care about fucking over other people.
              Exactly,
              Its good you see that now,
              Its that kind of thing that is super deceptive if you let it run without any checks and balances, because it really robs you of the chance to think.
              You just end up trying to ravage or push past things, rather than interact and adapt.
              Part of it is not wanting to have to react.
              There are lots of reasons why you get that way, but the more you see it, the more you will eventually be self aware enough to steer it away from destructive ends and more towards empathising with people without... pandering or whatever.

              Its that thing that is making it hard for you to reach your potential. Its the core of what is going on here.
              It isn't strictly something to stop (it can't be 100% stopped) obviously, its just something to sit with, and get better with.

              Cool, I'm glad you see it. Cuz without seeing it, it would OWN you.

              (nods)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Silvertree View Post
                Yes, they can get laid easily, but not by the guys they want to fuck.
                100% true! This is the challenge for the female. Hence endless boredom.

                It is amazing to follow how the man himself when he learns this stuff begins to feel like the female in this matters and becomes extremely picky, bored and unsatisfied in spite of variety.

                This is from a song by Franco Califano my favorite singer, recently dead and notorious playboy.

                "The first evening you need to show that you are the best lover in the world and all the rest.. all the rest is only boredom.. " LOL

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