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Getting things from guys, without using them

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kit View Post
    POB:

    Just wondering.. I am used to giving and taking a lot.. why should this be an issue...?
    I mean with my family we share and do a lot for each other and talk a lot.. this has nothing to do with actually becoming weak or taking advantage or whatever but just with simple rationality that the score between liking and dissliking another comes around 0 and we take care of the people we are surrounded by... why make such a fuss of giving and taking?

    it's not about giving someone everything he or she wants.. it's about helping out now and then and no over the top things.. drinks and stuff is like.. normal.
    But it has to come from both ways. usually guys seem to understand that it would either comes from both ways from me.. nd if it doesnt i just walk away instead of milking them for more drinks, goods etc.. (unless there is no other choice)

    hmm actually someone of my class was surprised guys were willing to travel so much for meeting up with me or going somewhere... it's weird how little some people are willing to do for another person

    i did something nice for this person.. and just cause i am not sure how to act towards him, someone who potentially isnt a giver yet, i had to take a stoic expression thing at the nices doing in order that the guy doesnt view me as weak. People are weird that way.
    Sorry it took me this while to answer.

    Kit, I was talking strictly in a seduction/attraction context. These things you mention (especially with family) are healthy and desirable. Of course we should care about our own and about each other as human beings.

    But when you put seduction into play, caring too much, showing too much affection or regularly doing stuff (even small things) for someone you don't know well is a huge turn off. It's also a strong indication of lack of focus and neediness. If I have a new girl texting me 2-3 times a day or trying hard to do me stuff, someone I've just met, I'll just uninvest because this is free attention I did not ask for. I just did nothing to deserve that, so why bother? It just shows the other part is more interested in giving me a lot of her time than to do her own stuff.

    It's the same when guys get out of their ways just to do things for you (again, even small things). Shows lack of commitment to themselves.

    So if I were you, I wouldn't mind about getting help now and then, sharing free drinks or guys traveling to meet. Don't dwell too much on it. Be nice and polite, accept things if you so desire and enjoy their companies...life is short and we should have fun whenever we can. Believe me, you're not using anyone IF you're being honest about how you feel and acting accordingly.

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    • #17
      As long as you don't appear as a beggar who is looking for people's mercy you know you are a level up as a woman in seduction. Manipulator and toxic beggar are the lowest level archetypes.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kit View Post
        I was just thinking about how happy I use to feel when a guy is willing to do something for me or is willing to buy something for me. and how it feels like a sign of appreciation and interest and how we are both on the same page about that we both like each other.

        like yesterday there was this guy who i started flirting a bit with cause i was voluntarily helping to clean.. and I just flirtily convinced him to do this small little thing for me and then we almost kissed (right vibe. just not the right moment.. (he would have gotten ill) and I just felt so HAPPY and kind of like "i like you so much" with him after he did what I had asked of him. it was with the right vibe. also the guy was hot and nice and everything. But I am pretty sure he wouldnt have done any work if it werent for me asking.

        then at another event i wasnt the one taking but giving.. the guy wanted a free beer and after some playing around and flirting, and challenging him for fun at exactly the moment he thought i wouldnt give him free beer anyway I gave him a free drink. thing is.. the sexual/flirty vibe was wat gave it an edge and some kind of sexual promise that was GOOD. and felt by both me and the guy.

        some guys i have gone to bed with. There also was this buying a drinks thing where it was just a sign of "trust", "respect" thing going on. Like.. I value you enough to not worry about doing something that I dont like that much for you...

        So I was wondering how it is that most PUA crap says that buying drinks and stuff is not a good thing to do for guys...

        I get rides and shit from guys all the time. and mostly it's more about the goodwill showing than about profiting from it. Actually. If a guy isnt willing to do stuff for me... it feels like he doesnt value me enough as a human being to take care


        so i dont understand. also i dont know whether to accept as a female from a guy that he buys stuff or does stuff for me. On the other hand. I am pretty sure that I would love to do the same for the guys if it is needed.. so What is the freaking issue?
        PUA can be weird sometimes (duh)
        But yes, you are right, if it has the right vibe or is in context its chill and just an extension of communicating
        BUT
        Guys can over do it too
        They can use it without context or vibe

        And the PUA advice that promoted not buying things most was DYD if I recall accurately? (it might be some other thing)
        And imho, DYD was full of "don't do xyz, cuz its cooler not to" type advice, which obviously only goes so far

        I mean... that rhetoric stuck with people
        But you find lots of guys who are not rigidly compliant to such restrictions, just cautious
        Often guys are over cautious, true...


        I think it is because first generation guys didn't have a natural feel on what they were doing, so often the advice they coined was...
        Eh..
        Questionable in its applicability
        BUT
        People latched onto it because it had a germ of truth to it that allowed them to act counter intuitively and try to shift their perspective out of other shit.

        I dunno... Its seedy advice to be a cheapass, but guys do need to question what they are giving, not because giving is bad (its good) but they just have to have thought on it more and developed a better inner process regarding it.


        (shrugs)

        Its not a big deal I don't think
        Guys that don't figure out there own way to do it are bound to fuck up anyways

        Its weird
        But I get your sentiment
        That it would be great if all guys just knew how to flow and be awesome


        Thats a lofty ideal
        Kinda has its problems too though if you really get into it though
        I mean, if all guys are flowing and such, are you just going to fuck everything forever?
        Its sort of hedonistic as far as expectations go
        Meaning you are lacking effort in understanding how to screen guys if it were a common thing
        Which pokes holes in your perfect examples, cuz in all those examples you are overly flowing with it without conscious appreciation or full awareness

        So, there is that...


        First generation imo, was irresponsiible with our reputation as men,
        I think a lot of people's reaction to it however is kinda crap too though (hiding in safer ideas like masculinity or passion)

        My view is, if men are to be truly desireable we can't be cartoon characters or love interests in a novel

        We've gotta expect women to question their passive desires a bit too, so that as guys we are respected, not just herded into some other fucking box.


        NO SOLUTION IS A SOLUTION WITHOUT TWO SIDES
        So, in a way... while you are right, its not a solution bbecause your proposal is that "women will just throw their hands up and accept it"
        Not true

        Women will eventually grow fickle, become upset, and seek resolution in blame, because they didn't learn the lesson in it
        Guys don't just suck at knowing when and how to buy stuff, girls are confused by choices and prefer to avoid decisions

        So it is innevitable that women EVENTUALLY reject even the most generous and authentic guy and his gifts
        Because she has discomfort in her own heart


        Just how it is...

        You are mostly right though I guess
        Vibe and context are important considerations and help to focus on in order to not be a cheapass

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        • #19
          Cosy, I think what you're saying plays to PUA as a whole.

          All the rules were eventually meant to be broken once one has enough experience to understand nuances in context.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jester View Post
            When I give something to someone, there are several important factors:

            - Is it something surplus that I'm giving? For me this changes a lot of the dynamics. Like, if I have about 10000 in my bank account I am much more willing to lend a friend 100 than if I myself only had about 1000 left. In the first case, even if I don't get it (or anything worth similar) back, I'm not going to suffer much from it. I can just let it go without having to get too annoyed. In the second case, though, having or not having those 100 might actually make a difference for my own life, which has a higher chance to affect me emotionally and thus have a negative impact on my relationship with that person. I have a habit of always knowing how much of any resource I might be giving I have left in my own stock so I know I won't suffer from giving if it goes "wrong" somehow. Of course at times I'd still make mistakes, like lending this one woman friend about 300 3/4 of a year back which I never got back and which almost started to matter because some other people were late to pay me back my stuff as well a few months back and I was down to about 600 in my bank account. Now that I got the stuff from the other, more responsible people back, I can safely write those 300 off without feeling too bad about them. I now know for sure never to lend that one specific person (or anyone else with similar behaviours) more than a few Euros anymore, which is a valuable learning experiene.

            - Now certain people like beggars and homeless people are somewhat different, and I have an extra "budget" for those consisting of 20 a month (which is between 1-2% of my monthly income), divided to 5 stacks. Whoever asks me for money of those, I'll just give them 5 regardless of how much they ask and why. I can't double-check their true intentions anyway so I figured out I might as well trust them to do their best with the money and restrict myself to not giving too much at the same time so I don't run into problems myself.

            - Now closing in on your actual question: with my current gf it's a little complicated because she's a student and has a hard time gathering enough money to pay for rent, food and stuff and it's a fact I currently earn much more money than she does. We have this unspoken agreement that we're still sharing the cost when we're together almost 50-50, but since it's understood that I simply have more financial freedom, I do sometimes invite her to some of her shares or the other. The first principle applies though: I will only do that as long as I feel confident about my own financial security and that I can safely see it as a gift freely given. Otherwise I would someday start to calculate my "spendings" against my "gainings" or something, which is not something I ever want to start doing with that woman. Keep in mind that the spending relation here is not about sex or relationship dominance, it's rather an expressioni of the financial possibilities every one of us has. Generousity for me is deeply connected to the ability or situation to safely be generous without having to calculate anything by being this way. I handle this the same with family or friends. Usually we pay for stuff 50/50 whoever it is, but depending on our financial situation and possibility there can be adaptions to compensate the differences without any hidden intents.

            - Now with strangers I meet on the streets or in bars I never pay them drinks or something, although many people (usually guys, sometimes women) tend to offer me some. Since usually I only drink water or sometimes juice, it's not that much of a bonding ritual for most anyway (them drinking alcohol, usually). I do like to share my water with thirsty people though or offer to get them additional water. Since I get it for free at my favourite pub (they knowing my dancing attracts more customers and their money than they would get from my spending) it's much more about caring for each other than having any financial impact, really.

            - I have a friend with which I was very close once and he has this weird habit of inviting everyone he knows or not knows to drink alcohol with him that he pays. It's an extreme example, but this guy is so extremely unhappy about his nights out that you won't believe it. All night 20-30 people are sitting around him and drinking from his vodka bottles, but nobody actually cares for him much, they are just there for the free drinks. In his mind the calculation "I buy drinks -> they are with me" must have been shattered a thousand times and still he can't shake it. Buying someone a drink to get them to talk with you for me is just that: they want the drink and readily accept it, but it's not about you then. I've offered women a glass of water (mine or another one), snowballs (to cool off from dancing), a Free Hug or nothing at all than myself, and it never really made a difference. Some were open to interact with me, some weren't, pretty much regardless of what I did. With some, doing nice stuff for/with them buys some extra time they pretend they want to interact with you, but in the end it doesn't matter much, so I figured I'd rather just do what I finid the right thing to do and be whoever I want to be in the moment without thinking about how to woo them. If they are attracted, I'll know, if they aren't, I'll know as well and won't have to try to "change" that by buying them stuff.

            - I once had a potential gf that had the idea that as a man you were supposed to act a certain way, like buy women flowers on certain days or invite them to drinks, and that she would just find someone who would do that if I didn't. You can imagine I'm not that much in contact with her anymore. Plus, she did play the "I'll just find someone who does" game a few times with different people. Seems to be she burned up all the men who she could trick into this and is now living alone in her apartment, not that happy. It's an extreme example, but to me it seems that following that "buy me a drink"-thing doesn't do much good to either the man nor the woman.

            Jester
            Jester, I beg your pardon: is this field tested enough to be applied in every situation? It seems too "mathematical" for me to think about the pros and cons of my wallet. In general I think about what is happening in my situation with the girl first and then I can count on your advice.

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