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  • Men Allowed Getting things from guys, without using them

    I was just thinking about how happy I use to feel when a guy is willing to do something for me or is willing to buy something for me. and how it feels like a sign of appreciation and interest and how we are both on the same page about that we both like each other.

    like yesterday there was this guy who i started flirting a bit with cause i was voluntarily helping to clean.. and I just flirtily convinced him to do this small little thing for me and then we almost kissed (right vibe. just not the right moment.. (he would have gotten ill) and I just felt so HAPPY and kind of like "i like you so much" with him after he did what I had asked of him. it was with the right vibe. also the guy was hot and nice and everything. But I am pretty sure he wouldnt have done any work if it werent for me asking.

    then at another event i wasnt the one taking but giving.. the guy wanted a free beer and after some playing around and flirting, and challenging him for fun at exactly the moment he thought i wouldnt give him free beer anyway I gave him a free drink. thing is.. the sexual/flirty vibe was wat gave it an edge and some kind of sexual promise that was GOOD. and felt by both me and the guy.

    some guys i have gone to bed with. There also was this buying a drinks thing where it was just a sign of "trust", "respect" thing going on. Like.. I value you enough to not worry about doing something that I dont like that much for you...

    So I was wondering how it is that most PUA crap says that buying drinks and stuff is not a good thing to do for guys...

    I get rides and shit from guys all the time. and mostly it's more about the goodwill showing than about profiting from it. Actually. If a guy isnt willing to do stuff for me... it feels like he doesnt value me enough as a human being to take care


    so i dont understand. also i dont know whether to accept as a female from a guy that he buys stuff or does stuff for me. On the other hand. I am pretty sure that I would love to do the same for the guys if it is needed.. so What is the freaking issue?

  • #2
    Buying shit for women before sex is easily misinterpreted as a sign that the man sees no value in himself as a person and thusly must offer external goods as a replacement for his personal value. Kind of like how most (blue pill) women have a problem with being seen only as "sex objects".

    Also it sets a traditional dating frame in which the man ends up either waiting for sex or perpetually orbiting the woman like Pluto, thusly giving up his power/influence in the mating process.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ColonelKurtz View Post
      Buying shit for women before sex is easily misinterpreted as a sign that the man sees no value in himself as a person and thusly must offer external goods as a replacement for his personal value.
      I think the issue here is that the guys at whom it is seen like that usually HAVE this intention. they are not getting to know the person, but just there for easy sex, with any girl thats less fake than a blow up doll. But if you manage to get yourself charming enough it is actually MORE alluring instead of less.. I think if your inner game is ok, buying a drink could be an intimate happening, instead of the other way around.


      Kind of like how most (blue pill) women have a problem with being seen only as "sex objects".
      hope that you mean to say that they arent sexobjects and that handing out drinks can be seen as a guy saying he finds the girl a sexobject (as i stated above), but in no way is it OK to be seen as ONLY a sexobject imo, for male and female alike. although i can imagine in some context people look for this kind of vibe exactly, i cant imagine something with this fulltime.. to work.
      Also it sets a traditional dating frame in which the man ends up either waiting for sex or perpetually orbiting the woman like Pluto, thusly giving up his power/influence in the mating process.
      think this is culture and your own "vibe" dependent. I know guys who would exactly achieve this yes. I also know guys aho would in no way achieve this... and at whom buying drinks is kind of like part of the allure.

      also i see you didnt comment on how it can work the other way around..


      edit: sorry, forgot to thank you for your answer so thanks for your response

      Comment


      • #4
        Very nice post, actually!

        Suddenly showering an unsuspecting girl with compliments, is one of my 'things'. Im sure gifts/favors can accomplish similar feeling when done like that, and that 'moment of elatedness' (similar to your description) is certainly very conductive for making love happen.

        Volunteering when a girl is looking for a ride or a favor or a drink (or even attention), on the other hand.. is very different, and has proven to directly interfere with chances to charm that particular girl. On the flip side, getting girls we like to do us favors, is a very desirable towards that aim. Not exactly sure why its like that....

        I suspect it goes both ways though; that if any person has real interest in another, getting a favor from that person will increase chances (love), while doing a favor for that person will decrease chances, regardless who is male/female.

        Or so it seems, based on limited testing

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ijjjji View Post
          I suspect it goes both ways though; that if any person has real interest in another, getting a favor from that person will increase chances (love), while doing a favor for that person will decrease chances, regardless who is male/female.

          Or so it seems, based on limited testing
          I believe this is an over-simplification of the power dynamic. If a person is flooded with "gifts" they become meaningless and even are seen as gratuitous attempts to buy their favor. A few examples: The rock star that has a bunch of companies giving them free stuff and even average girls in a bar. I went to a night club with a far better than average lover a few years back. She teased me about buying her a drink and I told her to go get my drinks instead. I went on to give her the idea to get other guys to think they were buying her drinks and then give them to me. She did it, but supplied them to one of my friends instead of me. The playfulness between us encouraged our bond, and my friend loved her too, but the random guys were just pawns.

          Because this kind of play can be nuanced PUA dogma is to avoid it. However, if you can play with it without losing value it can work very well to create the bubble. I have offered to cook dinner to good effect. Power play is a fascinating part of the sexual dance and buying or doing favors is a manifestation of power that must be used wisely.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kit View Post
            So I was wondering how it is that most PUA crap says that buying drinks and stuff is not a good thing to do for guys...

            What is the freaking issue?
            Because there's very little correlation between buying a girl drinks and getting laid. If you want to fuck a guy, it won't matter much, you're going to fuck him whether he buys you drinks or not. And if you don't want to fuck a guy, it won't matter much, you're not going to fuck him whether he buys you drinks or not. Rarely will buying a drink tip the scale. So as a guy, why bother with buying drinks? Its a non-variable that is money-out. So: AVOID! Rather, learn other more effective and less expensive tactics for making a girl feel "appreciation and interest."

            This tends to be advice for beginner/intermediates, there's a mistaken AFC idea out there that buying a girl drinks will help a guy get laid, its one of the most common mistaken AFC ideas out there, the typical AFC "seduction" starts with "can I buy you a drink?" So "buy her drinks" exists as a blue-pill supplication-esque idea that needs to be stamped out of AFCs as a part of their re-framing of how sexual interactions actually work.

            An experienced guy can do whatever he wants, he can buy drinks all day long if that's what he feels like, its a non-variable. But its a necessary step in the learning process for a guy to fully comprehend that buying a girl shit, especially the classic dating shit like drinks and flowers, is meaningless to getting laid. There's no need for an AFC to lose a bunch of money field testing drink-buying in his learning process.

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            • #7
              The men here stress about buying women stuff because they associate it with years of being the "nice guy" or being taken advantage of. They have used it in a desperate attempt to get laid and shelled out money that never got them anywhere because it was needy and goal directed. Men who frame it differently, as GIVING to a woman rather than trying to GET something from her, are different.

              You should always accept gifts that guys give you, with an attitude of gratefulness and appreciation. Just don't allow it to make you feel guilty or like you owe them something in return. You don't owe anyone anything if they are giving you a gift in the right spirit and you should assume that EVERYONE is doing so (even if they aren't, because that's on them). Its in a man's nature to want to give to you when he likes you and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

              Men, and anyone, can give you things just to be nice or because they like your smile and it not have anything to do with sex. My co-workers laugh because almost everywhere we go someone gives me free food. These are people that really don't WANT anything from me, they just enjoy being around positive, bubbly energy (which I tend to be full of while working) and so they are motivated to give.

              For instance, the other day an older man from another company randomly bought me a funnel cake. He is planning to get married and was showing me pictures of his fiance. I didn't feel like he was trying to get with me. I've had WOMEN give me stuff too, like free tacos or an ice cold drink. It's more of a hey, we like you so we wanted to share this with you! It's just what people are hardwired to do when they are in a good mood, be generous with whatever they have to give.

              This is the kind of exchange you WANT, not men who are trying to buy you but ones who enjoy giving to you because they enjoy your company. I personally avoid men who DON'T give because it feels like he is putting out negative energy. If he's withholding and being stingy its like he doesn't really like me so why would I want to be around him? He's going against what nature would have him do and its a turn off.

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              • #8
                I think it comes down if the person is giving to give or giving to get (strings attached).

                Likewise, I don't like it when people ask me to do stuff for them because I want to do what I want to do out of my own desire.

                My mom always used to give me stuff as a means of saying "I gave you this, so you owe me this!", then I rejected her gifts for years. Finally she started giving me stuff without asking for anything in return, and while I appreciated the gifts, I told her I didn't need the gifts because I'm abundant and that she should keep the money for her retirement.

                So how can you tell if someone is giving to give vs giving to get, I think timing is a factor. If a guy gives you something in the beginning it's obviously to get something. I think if someone gives you something sporadically, when you least expect it, then it's without strings attached and can be appreciated.

                I disagree with LoverGirl. I personally dislike getting things from people which have a hidden price tag on them. It just kills the relationship for me. I want people to do something because they want to do it, whether it's sex or a material object.

                Women do the same thing, they give fake compliments, or give fake emotions just to get something. It's cheap, disingenuous, deceptive and coming from the wrong place, and anyone with a shred of integrity will pick up on it. When someone acts fake towards me whether guy or girl, I immediately next them because I cannot trust them, and trust is the critical foundation of a relationship.

                It doesn't matter what you give, you should give it genuinely from your heart, and you should expect the same from other people. Also I never give anything to anyone, but when I do, it destroys them and they end up crying, because then they know it actually means something.

                Giving to get is the hallmark of manipulation. No one likes to be manipulated, except for manipulators.

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                • #9
                  I prefer giving women the greatest gift of all: my cock!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kit View Post

                    I get rides and shit from guys all the time. and mostly it's more about the goodwill showing than about profiting from it. Actually. If a guy isnt willing to do stuff for me... it feels like he doesnt value me enough as a human being to take care

                    Ride = BJ = Fair

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                    • #11
                      BEWARE: Dog analogy ahead.

                      Do this exercise. Get a new dog. Give him everything he asks for (food). Wait a couple of months. Now try to make him obey any command or piss in the right place. You can't right? And why you can't? Because he knows you're a pussy who will do whatever he wants. He's aware he's got the whole power in his hands/paws.

                      Switch to relationships. Meet a new guy. Let the guy do lots of things for you. Who's got the power in this relationship? Are you ok with it? You aren't because you know you got the power over him, and women feel extremely bored and dissatisfied when they realize that (may take some time but is a sure thing).

                      Trust me, when you're getting things for "free" (even when you don't ask), deep down you know you got some edge over this person. Because of that (and if they don't change their behavior), eventually, they'll loose your attraction. It's human nature.

                      Of course I'm not talking about being kind or a helpful person, which is something we should all strive for. I'm talking about dudes doing stuff just because they think you're cute (and want to get closer to you). AFCs do it all the time (and you probably know how to properly identify this shit):

                      Originally posted by Kit View Post
                      But I am pretty sure he wouldnt have done any work if it werent for me asking.
                      Guy is just being nice/flirty, you're reciprocating, very good.

                      Originally posted by Kit View Post
                      I get rides and shit from guys all the time. and mostly it's more about the goodwill showing than about profiting from it. Actually. If a guy isnt willing to do stuff for me... it feels like he doesnt value me enough as a human being to take care.
                      Now you're demanding...mind you it's their fault for behaving like that, they're the ones to blame, but you probably won't get anything good from it long-term.

                      P.S. We guys feel the same with women who are constantly texting, giving over the top attention or doing too much for us.

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                      • #12
                        POB:

                        Just wondering.. I am used to giving and taking a lot.. why should this be an issue...?
                        I mean with my family we share and do a lot for each other and talk a lot.. this has nothing to do with actually becoming weak or taking advantage or whatever but just with simple rationality that the score between liking and dissliking another comes around 0 and we take care of the people we are surrounded by... why make such a fuss of giving and taking?

                        it's not about giving someone everything he or she wants.. it's about helping out now and then and no over the top things.. drinks and stuff is like.. normal.
                        But it has to come from both ways. usually guys seem to understand that it would either comes from both ways from me.. nd if it doesnt i just walk away instead of milking them for more drinks, goods etc.. (unless there is no other choice)

                        hmm actually someone of my class was surprised guys were willing to travel so much for meeting up with me or going somewhere... it's weird how little some people are willing to do for another person

                        i did something nice for this person.. and just cause i am not sure how to act towards him, someone who potentially isnt a giver yet, i had to take a stoic expression thing at the nicesdoing in order that the guy doesnt view me as weak. People are weird that way.

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                        • #13
                          It's nice to share moments of non-weird mutual generosity and good-will with people, especially with that added spice of sexuality and all the other masculine/feminine dynamics or whatever that come along with it.

                          It takes time though for some of us to be able tell the difference between contexts where giving will be felt, seen, and appreciated and where it will be twisted, ignored, taken advantage of, or seen as stifling. Plus, in conjunction with that is living a life with a level of emotional health, abundance, and connectedness with others that makes generosity an appealing choice.

                          When to give, how to give, who to give to, why to give, what giving can mean and what it can do... these are complicated questions that can lead to all sorts of places and fears inside a man. Well... it did for me. But, we gain a shit load of nuance and understanding from processing it and calm down from extreme reactions, when things are not as clear or safe in mutuality as we might like.

                          Plus, as a dude, there is that shift from seeing sex as an achievement or mission, to it being a sharing and vehicle for self-expression. For me at least, it changes the way I do things from this tactical point of view, to one where sexual communication is just as much a part of me as my generosity.

                          Natural fractionation through abundance if want to throw in some quasi PUA-lingo in there.

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                          • #14
                            When I give something to someone, there are several important factors:

                            - Is it something surplus that I'm giving? For me this changes a lot of the dynamics. Like, if I have about 10000€ in my bank account I am much more willing to lend a friend 100€ than if I myself only had about 1000€ left. In the first case, even if I don't get it (or anything worth similar) back, I'm not going to suffer much from it. I can just let it go without having to get too annoyed. In the second case, though, having or not having those 100€ might actually make a difference for my own life, which has a higher chance to affect me emotionally and thus have a negative impact on my relationship with that person. I have a habit of always knowing how much of any resource I might be giving I have left in my own stock so I know I won't suffer from giving if it goes "wrong" somehow. Of course at times I'd still make mistakes, like lending this one woman friend about 300€ 3/4 of a year back which I never got back and which almost started to matter because some other people were late to pay me back my stuff as well a few months back and I was down to about 600€ in my bank account. Now that I got the stuff from the other, more responsible people back, I can safely write those 300€ off without feeling too bad about them. I now know for sure never to lend that one specific person (or anyone else with similar behaviours) more than a few Euros anymore, which is a valuable learning experiene.

                            - Now certain people like beggars and homeless people are somewhat different, and I have an extra "budget" for those consisting of 20€ a month (which is between 1-2% of my monthly income), divided to 5€ stacks. Whoever asks me for money of those, I'll just give them 5€ regardless of how much they ask and why. I can't double-check their true intentions anyway so I figured out I might as well trust them to do their best with the money and restrict myself to not giving too much at the same time so I don't run into problems myself.

                            - Now closing in on your actual question: with my current gf it's a little complicated because she's a student and has a hard time gathering enough money to pay for rent, food and stuff and it's a fact I currently earn much more money than she does. We have this unspoken agreement that we're still sharing the cost when we're together almost 50-50, but since it's understood that I simply have more financial freedom, I do sometimes invite her to some of her shares or the other. The first principle applies though: I will only do that as long as I feel confident about my own financial security and that I can safely see it as a gift freely given. Otherwise I would someday start to calculate my "spendings" against my "gainings" or something, which is not something I ever want to start doing with that woman. Keep in mind that the spending relation here is not about sex or relationship dominance, it's rather an expressioni of the financial possibilities every one of us has. Generousity for me is deeply connected to the ability or situation to safely be generous without having to calculate anything by being this way. I handle this the same with family or friends. Usually we pay for stuff 50/50 whoever it is, but depending on our financial situation and possibility there can be adaptions to compensate the differences without any hidden intents.

                            - Now with strangers I meet on the streets or in bars I never pay them drinks or something, although many people (usually guys, sometimes women) tend to offer me some. Since usually I only drink water or sometimes juice, it's not that much of a bonding ritual for most anyway (them drinking alcohol, usually). I do like to share my water with thirsty people though or offer to get them additional water. Since I get it for free at my favourite pub (they knowing my dancing attracts more customers and their money than they would get from my spending) it's much more about caring for each other than having any financial impact, really.

                            - I have a friend with which I was very close once and he has this weird habit of inviting everyone he knows or not knows to drink alcohol with him that he pays. It's an extreme example, but this guy is so extremely unhappy about his nights out that you won't believe it. All night 20-30 people are sitting around him and drinking from his vodka bottles, but nobody actually cares for him much, they are just there for the free drinks. In his mind the calculation "I buy drinks -> they are with me" must have been shattered a thousand times and still he can't shake it. Buying someone a drink to get them to talk with you for me is just that: they want the drink and readily accept it, but it's not about you then. I've offered women a glass of water (mine or another one), snowballs (to cool off from dancing), a Free Hug or nothing at all than myself, and it never really made a difference. Some were open to interact with me, some weren't, pretty much regardless of what I did. With some, doing nice stuff for/with them buys some extra time they pretend they want to interact with you, but in the end it doesn't matter much, so I figured I'd rather just do what I finid the right thing to do and be whoever I want to be in the moment without thinking about how to woo them. If they are attracted, I'll know, if they aren't, I'll know as well and won't have to try to "change" that by buying them stuff.

                            - I once had a potential gf that had the idea that as a man you were supposed to act a certain way, like buy women flowers on certain days or invite them to drinks, and that she would just find someone who would do that if I didn't. You can imagine I'm not that much in contact with her anymore. Plus, she did play the "I'll just find someone who does" game a few times with different people. Seems to be she burned up all the men who she could trick into this and is now living alone in her apartment, not that happy. It's an extreme example, but to me it seems that following that "buy me a drink"-thing doesn't do much good to either the man nor the woman.

                            Jester

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                            • #15
                              Read this: http://web.archive.org/web/201005051...com/badpu1.htm

                              Props to ockwick for posting Maniac High's pickup guide from the late 1990s, a cornerstone on which the PUA community is based!

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