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How to fall for someone selflessly

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  • How to fall for someone selflessly

    I was just thinking of friends and how they can fall in love with guys I wouldnt even look twice at

    and how i think i am in love with someone i have never seen the face of ...

    but also how as soon as I will see the face most likely all the love wont be enough for me to like the guy

    so that makes me selfish at love..
    i put requirements on a person to fall in love with them

    so that means I am not really selfless in love

    please tell me
    how to get rid of the selfishness in love..
    the idea that you have to find the perfect being to be in love and if the person isnt the perfect being with the perfect mistakes you cant​​​​​ fall in love

    how do i get rid of this wrong presumption?
    of the cold shower i get when a guy turns out to be ugly or dumb or not 'good enough"
    how to be less ego based and selfish at love?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

  • #2
    There's no such thing as selflessness. The best fits tend to be people who's self interests are in sync and compatible. Note that doing things for others is a self interest in itself. There's no way around it, you can't shake the selfishness of human existence, no matter which way you turn there's a selfish motive underneath. And this is all good, its nothing to be bothered by. Just find good fits for yourself.

    Comment


    • #3
      Be selfish. Greed is good.

      Comment


      • #4
        For long-term happiness, you'll probably need both: conditional and unconditional love.

        - Conditional love, to make sure your needs are met.

        - Unconditional love, to endure the fact that people will change over time, and the changes might not necessarily be the ones you want, or they might not look this way at first.

        I used to believe unconditional love (what you call "selfless" love) was "better" than the other, and tried to become very good at the former, ignoring the need for the latter. Didn't make me all too happy in the long run.

        Like, you might find like I do that you'll feel (unconditional) love for several people. It's an unlimited resource, basically. But since we live in a world where you'll only be able to be in one time and space at a time, you'll need the conditional part as well, to make use of that limited resource.

        So, don't get rid of selfishness in love. It's good for you, as the others have pointed out. But feel free to cultivate selfishlessness in addition to it, and use the two appropiately

        Jester

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        • #5
          The thing is, "selfless" or "unconditional" love or whatever you want to call it, is just selfishness buried under some layers of bullshit. Its an act of self deception. You choose to give selfless love to certain people because doing so makes you feel good/special/unique/moral/just/holy/better than others/superpowerful (to use a term of yours you use to descibe yourself)/ etc etc. Insert whatever payoff motivation applies.

          What this does is actually push your connectedness to yourself further away. You're not clearly understanding your actual motivations for taking actions towards love, you're hiding them from yourself by creating a fantasy.

          Thus, instead of finding good fits with others based on observable compatible selfishness based in reality, you drag your layers of bullshit into things, where the fit is based around you needing to feel good/special/unique/moral/just/holy/better than others/superpowerful. Except you're not even aware that this is the reason, you'd rather bury all that under the word "unconditional" or "selfless," hiding reality from yourself. This pattern of bullshitting yourself -> lack of self awareness will lead to ending up mired in more poor fits in your life.

          Its classic blue pill thinking.

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          • #6
            Its possible
            You just need to set out to understand them
            And not flinch when you see stuff that disgusts you
            Then handle it, and go find more n more until your love is aware of who the person is and incapable of disgust because of truths of who they are

            Its basically the same as the m/w complex
            Where guys judge girls as slutty n such for being open minded like they want them to be
            You gotta weave your way through all the double standards

            But I have bad news
            You can't do it on a whim, or by feeling emotional about it
            It is a long, gruelling task, with almost no reward to it cuz you end up basically where you started, just minus the dickishness

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            • #7
              Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
              Its possible
              You just need to set out to understand them
              And not flinch when you see stuff that disgusts you
              Then handle it, and go find more n more until your love is aware of who the person is and incapable of disgust because of truths of who they are
              You haven't ever done this though, have you? This is more a description of what parents of highly disabled children go through at times.

              Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post
              But I have bad news
              You can't do it on a whim, or by feeling emotional about it
              It is a long, gruelling task, with almost no reward to it cuz you end up basically where you started, just minus the dickishness
              For sure. If this is a choice, then its a way to bypass and bury deeper rooted issues. I'd highly recommend sniffing these out and addressing them directly, rather than going the unaware penance seeking route. If you don't address the actual issue, you'll forever be seeking penance no matter how grueling you make things for yourelf. That's not the path to the most enjoyable life or the healthiest personal relationships.

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              • thecostofsuccess

                thecostofsuccess

                commented
                Editing a comment
                That is awefully snarky of you man

            • #8
              Not snarky, just truth. I can't imagine you've ever actually done this yourself, and these aren't behaviors and desires you find in well adjusted self actualized people.

              Maybe it comes off harsh, I didn't mean it that way, its dead objective and meant to open eyes to something better. The intention is to help Kit and Jester achieve a better life for themselves by seeking out the root of these penance type desires, rather than giving into the easier path of less self awareness and reacting to them. To take control of them and squash them, rather than letting them control you.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Logic&Reason View Post
                Not snarky, just truth. I can't imagine you've ever actually done this yourself, and these aren't behaviors and desires you find in well adjusted self actualized people.

                Maybe it comes off harsh, I didn't mean it that way, its dead objective and meant to open eyes to something better. The intention is to help Kit and Jester achieve a better life for themselves by seeking out the root of these penance type desires, rather than giving into the easier path of less self awareness and reacting to them. To take control of them and squash them, rather than letting them control you.
                Heres the thing Logic and Reason, why should I respond to you when you are acting like this?
                Tell me what purpose it serves for a guy like me?
                Any?

                I've liked many of your posts as of late, but I find this reaction to my post rather disturbing
                Not cuz it is my post or that I have anything invested in it, but because of the things it is revealling to me about you
                And I WANT to see good things in you

                Sorry man I'm not going to buy into your act
                (btw I do understand your point, but it is hardly relevant now)

                Comment


                • #10
                  Can you clarify what's bothering you? If you understand my point then what's the deal and why would the actual point be irrelevant?

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                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Logic&Reason View Post
                    Can you clarify what's bothering you?
                    Are you dense
                    You basically called me a lier and a cheat

                    For what?
                    So you can grandstand over a relatively minor point?

                    Am I a lier and a cheat cuz of my message to kit?

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by thecostofsuccess View Post

                      Are you dense
                      You basically called me a lier and a cheat

                      For what?
                      So you can grandstand over a relatively minor point?

                      Am I a lier and a cheat cuz of my message to kit?
                      I think you KJ'd on that one, yes. Or were speaking from observation not experience. Didn't mean to offend you though, just the usual PU board talk, and if I'm wrong by all means correct me.

                      Comment


                      • thecostofsuccess

                        thecostofsuccess

                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Consider yourself corrected then
                        Ask me later and I may tell you the substance behind why
                        I won't now though as you can probably understand I dont feel like it after you falsely levying those accusations at me

                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Logic&Reason View Post
                      Not snarky, just truth. I can't imagine you've ever actually done this yourself, and these aren't behaviors and desires you find in well adjusted self actualized people.

                      Maybe it comes off harsh, I didn't mean it that way, its dead objective and meant to open eyes to something better. The intention is to help Kit and Jester achieve a better life for themselves by seeking out the root of these penance type desires, rather than giving into the easier path of less self awareness and reacting to them. To take control of them and squash them, rather than letting them control you.
                      I am somehow wondering how we went from: offer people advice on what they seek
                      to: offer people advice on what you think they should seek.
                      L&R thanks for the intention to be honest, however here I see you are kind of trying to change the choice I want to make in life.. while the whole discussion got opened on that one and the working of this forum
                      Can you besides giving your own view on the goal, since you feel like thats you being honest
                      also give tips on how I could achieve what I see as my goal?

                      Also don't get why you added Jester's name and view to my view. What my view is, isn't necessarily Jesters.
                      I somewhat feel attacked on my view. Disrespected.
                      I am sure you didnt mean it that way.



                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Ok so I'll explain how to accomplish selfless love and how I did it
                        I never explain it for anyone so perhaps now is a good time

                        Ok, so strong love that comes from nature is also wild
                        Think Vicky Cristina Barcelona when I say wild
                        It has two sides, the side that clicks instantly and without reservation (the love)
                        And the side that boils up underneath the surface that feels that initial loving without reservation is not only flawed but supresses the expression of fear and seperation anxiety (the wildness)

                        Two halves of this natural and wild love is to care for someone without reason and to know it is a fatal flaw to do so.
                        For to love without any rationale, means the person could be anybody and the outcome could be anything.
                        The worst of these outcomes is that they die
                        The other that they leave you
                        And you yourself feel you die, or you yourself feel you should leave yourself

                        That level of fear and fragility being suppressed, TRIGGERS even the toughest of people to need to do or say something, so the person loses that moment to moment decision of restraint, and often chooses to be unrestrained wishing that their perfect partner will correct their behaviour for them, understand them, and purify their love and make it safe
                        However, the other person also has wild love and chooses the same, so two toxic expressions can come out at one another, cutting into each others deepests fears pains and disgust

                        The fear and disgust is doubled by the fact that the person themselves cant even handle their own fear of loss, let alone the crazy aggression and convoluted "logic" the fear of the other person spews up
                        Then trippled by the fact you instinctively and immediately supplicate to what they SEEM TO WANT YOU TO DO, so are put in binds, by their fears, and so must unbind yourself of their fear and in doing so, utterly betray them and their worst fears...

                        The love on the surface, smothers the fear underneath of loss, and traps the fear where it is most afraid, to express itself when the person is alone and "unconfined" by the wonder of the other person
                        Eventually people grow comfortable with the fear in some way, and so start to say that the love part is UNCOMFORTABLE, wrong, and yes... SELFISH
                        This is how they start to express it more toxicly and become selfish about it. They see the other person as selfish to free themself and in doing so mirror that percieved selfishness with actual selfishness.

                        ~~~~~~~~~~

                        The above is really complicated but the simple version is that selfish love is at its most extreme and its most placid in "wild love"
                        The placidness amplifies the part of love that is selfish though, and in turn the selfish part of love then reaches everywhere and fucks with literally everything

                        I was in such a situation with an ex of mine
                        She indeed had ideas of strangling me (which scared her, cuz it isn't her to feel like that)
                        She wanted to hurt me, make me bleed... half destroy me
                        And not out of revenge... oh no... from stuff as simple as perceptions

                        I too had crazy fucked up feelings, I just wanted her so much that I would go into blind rage and want to lift other guys up by their throats and toss them aside
                        Just innocent dudes, randomly hitting on her or something, cuz she'd always react in a super flattered way, because in reality, she wanted it to happen so it would prove she was desireable to me
                        So, her being afraid of losing me, made her flattered by the things that would lose me, and I felt this was insane and had no way to convince her around, so reacted violently to other guys
                        And she of course would FOOL the other guys with her flattery that they were doing well, so they would continue

                        I dunno... one time in the car she asked me "do you think I'm crazy"
                        And I was like "no, you aren't... I get why you do it..."
                        And another time I asked "do you think I am an idiot"
                        To which initially she said "no, you are not... I think you are the brightest guy I've ever known"
                        Only to later conclude "you are just like the rest of guys" and therefor an idiot

                        I explained above how and why such conclusions are come to....
                        It is hardly a matter of choice at those points when wild love grips at you.
                        The suppression of instantly believing in the other person forces out the doubt in you sooner or later and you have to face off with it.

                        "Will she cheat with one of those guys, all signs point to yes"
                        And it disgusts you
                        And in her eyes she sees your disgust in her, and thinks "he already sees me as a fucking whore! what a prick! how could he!"
                        And so finds other men without this limitation to be a "welcome relief"

                        So then you see her putting on a show as fucking them... And you tear apart inside.
                        And she comes back gloating, expecting some kind of triumph, only to swallow down fear and the possibility she is a total fucker who abandoned the only love she ever had known for real.
                        So she tries to capitulate to you. But you rebuff her (I didnt do this cuz of my pua, but most guys do)
                        And she scorned sees that it might be forever implausible to repair things.

                        etc etc etc

                        ~~~

                        Now, the selfish part comes along with the antipathy of this phase
                        You feel antipathy towards each other due to the nature of the confusions



                        And so you get selfish, or you are supposed to (I didn't and this is where my advice developed from)
                        The girl gets mad that the guy isn't man enough about her, and the guy gets mad that shes disgusting in her expectations and like a spoilt and rediculous person out to just slander and deny things and control people when she doesn't even know right from wrong herself etc

                        Anyways, I held back on all that
                        I saw it was an illusion
                        I also was not going to bite on all the fears that I wasn't enough and all that stuff

                        I was confident.
                        I reacted like all of that was horse shit, and that I knew she loved me and I her, and none of that other shit mattered.
                        I endeavored to understand her version of events and her reality, and endeavored not to call her names or make her out to be disgusting for being human and having the same flaws as I have and everyone has during wild love.

                        I'd look at some attack against me, and see that love was at the heart of her hate, and so as confronted by her, I reacted differently than you are meant to.
                        Which ironically I think drove her away faster. Cuz I was as a result much scarier to her, and "unknown" since I could react totally seperate from the narrative.
                        A guy harder to control, plus her own emotions outside her control...
                        :P

                        Anyways, I did a really cool thing with it, though at an insanely high cost
                        (lol my avatar is kinda prophetic in a way "dude who will pay the price)
                        And NO logicnreason, it isn't PENANCE

                        The price I had to pay was manyfold
                        - conquer all my fears
                        - understand and then conquer all her fears by changing into an even stronger man
                        - conquer the reality of where things lay
                        - overcome and understand my supplications to her that lead to love

                        The price of each was extremely high
                        ALL of my fears was a high order, my biggest fear being that I was a tyrannical and controlling force, which I had to overturn by giving up many of my dreams as I saw them to be, so I might be humble (still have the dreams, just not as a tyrannical force)
                        This wasn't fun, but I think it is necessary to overcome in life regardless of its use in love

                        Understanding all her fears took me getting stabbed in the chest by each one, then as being stabbed by it, looking in her eyes, forgiving that stuff and seeing her world, her motivations, her struggles, until I understood her action was actually my own also in most cases. I then forgave her and corrected my own version of that behaviour. One by one by one, I went through each fear, until there were no knives left.
                        Just knowledge. The price of that... was imo too much... That REALLY hurt, like really fucking bad... I don't recommend

                        Conquering the reality was hard but not impossible, it required a reordering of priorities away from needing love in my life to just understanding what it is, and perhaps wanting parts of it in my life but only with choice attatched not wild crazy stuff. I came to understand that cheating doesn't exist for me, cuz life isn't ever black and white. And somehow I grew totally immune to jealousy and fear of loss. I became self sufficient sustained by my own ability to love unconditionally (which I will explain in a bit)
                        This part is perhaps adviseable

                        And the price that came with untangling all the weeds of how I ended up falling for her and why
                        I mean, from how hot she was, to how willing to love she was, to how verascious the sex was, to how spiritual the connection was. But on the other hand how possessive she was, how controlling, how easy to anger, how many rules and ultermadums she used without a single care at all for my freedoms or choices... I mean, their was beauty and monstrousness... and you can't just favor one over the other. It is a giant pain in the ass to unravel adequately.

                        ~~~~~~~

                        Ok, so I had a process, or came up with one, and this is my advice

                        Basically there are two sides to things
                        The Blank Void and the Dark Mystery

                        We choose pain because the dark mystery holds hope for change and ultimate accomplishment
                        And the Blank Void, while rational, holds no hope and promises death eventually, so no matter how good the relationship you ask "is it worth my whole life, worth dying for"

                        Often times we choose the dark mystery no matter the odds against that path
                        And we reject the blank void no matter the logic behind it

                        The reasons behind why we make that choice come back to the costs I laid out earlier
                        - ALL your lifes fears
                        - Fear of being hurt and betrayed
                        - Fear of reality coming to pass
                        - How affected you are emotionally by another and can't change

                        All the momentum of your life has been pushed by fears
                        How can you stop it? Without stopping your life in its tracks?
                        How can you do it without uprooting every choice you've ever made?
                        And so you cant choose the blank void and you choose the dark mystery

                        You choose the new relationship, the shadey choice, drugs, whatever helps keep the mystery alive.
                        I chose scotch :P
                        Cuz its funnier than anything else, and I'm a writer so, it fits.

                        Point being that all those prices push you like a stone rolling down a hill
                        And you have to stop that momentum to choose the blank void.


                        My process worked by understanding the following
                        The dark void was like a dark alleyway in a street
                        It was dark yes
                        But eventually always leads back out to the light
                        And in the light, all mystery is always dispelled, and all you come to see are streets

                        I accepted the innevitability of the blank void coming to pass
                        Accepted that the dark streets were not real

                        But I also came to understand that the dark streets DO bring something out in OURSELVES
                        While not true in reality, they are crucial to our PERSONAL TRANSFORMATION and our ability to observe beauty and hope in life.

                        I thusly did not villainise the dark mystery simply cuz it always leads to the blank void
                        I chose instead to try to balance both dark and terrible beauty with blank heartless innevitability
                        I would seek the beauty in the dark, and remember it as I came out into the light.

                        So for example, a woman says I'm a boy and not a man
                        The harsh reality is that she and I both just can't handle each other and want to run away cuz of fears and rationalise that cuz we are scared of each other
                        Also we want to look strong to ourselves so bullshit and lie
                        The beautiful dark mystery is that she truly does LOVE AND HATE you with all of her fiercest parts of her soul

                        Her passion ignites like a flame, until it burns to ash and she is left there crying... questioning why...

                        In that terrifying beauty, I glimpse at her terrible haunted faces of dispair
                        But I also see the sparks that split off from the flames where she is for moments completely entranced by wonder and awe and dances however briefly and sees the potential of life

                        I look at the fact we cant handle each other, but then I also see that she is capable of wonder, and hope
                        But that she has fallen to ash in the intensity of the flame

                        And therefor by combining the dark with the logical light, I see a much TRUER picture that is not nihilistic but contains humanity
                        And with that slither of humanity I can UNDERSTAND even the hardest of truths...

                        A girl might FORGET ME and WISH SHE DIDNT EVER LOVE ME
                        But I know... she did love me, and furiously, tenderly, and with all of her deepest senses want to entoxicate herself within my scent and being
                        Yet hilariously also thinks I'm a jerk
                        And is right too, in many ways
                        OF COURSE she wants to forget... of course it is easier... and of course I will not pain her to remind her because I know of its sting.


                        But I was going to tell you a process...
                        Ok so the process is that you seperate light and dark
                        Then you find the beauty in the dark, the horror, and you balance them in the truth of the daylight
                        So that truth is complimented by human worth and understanding of lifes terrible sides and beauty


                        I did this thousands of times, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of times. Over and over, until my disgust turned into joy... and sorrow...
                        And depth of understanding her for all she is and was, and was not.
                        I did it until my rage and desire to blame was entirely gone, and I could wipe away the terror of it all.
                        Until I was just standing there as a man, aware of both dark, and light... and death...
                        Having grieved... and also learnt to appreciate all things within the explosive fire of that wild love.

                        And haha.. I was not rewarded by her being soothed by my presence. Shed still run if she saw me probably.
                        Cry to her husband maybe...
                        However it would go.
                        Maybe shed act mature (Id hope so by now) and maybe thats the truth

                        But, I was not rewarded by my love.
                        I chose to love her in the dark and terrifying shit cuz I knew it was false to ignore it had happened, and disrespectful of me to take it away.
                        So in facing disgust, I found equal beauty and denial...
                        And I corrected them
                        Unselfishlessly, without motive for profit, other than to do it right where others would forever be trapped by doing it wrong

                        My own actions determining my motivation in life is indeed selfish
                        But, I chose to love her based on integrity alone and walked a harder path for it
                        Where I no longer scorn her, nor praise her...
                        I survive ALONE off my own inherent ability to do so with love in my heart

                        I don't need her, or any other girl to complete me.
                        But I chose not to ignore her, or forget her, because that was what it took to love someone unselfishly.


                        I love her,
                        But it is not at all selfish love
                        She is free to be herself
                        Fears n all

                        I have no secret "fuck her shes going to fuck her own life up"
                        No no no... I want her success and for her to use anything she learned to have a great life



                        To be truly selfless in love, requires transforming the points of bitterness and disgust
                        Into a more human and emotional reaction so you can process it and understand all good bad and blank of it
                        All of that together makes you neutral cuz you won't need them anymore, the act of doing it makes you love yourself
                        So... you can let go without fear
                        You can also be there without fear and navigate situations better

                        It is possible to love without conditions or selfish motive
                        But you have to earn it

                        ~~~~~~~

                        The technique is this

                        1) Find a gross thing and secure it for observation
                        2) Review dark mystery, good, bad, and the blank void and observe that the best outcome is not in direction of extremes
                        3) Delve into the perspective they have emotionally... there will be fear and anger and affects on you... get past them until you stop calling them a hypocrite
                        4) Use logic to determine what the likely motivations they have are (this requires an understanding of wild love and how it works as well as ordinary relationships and the confidence to not say you suck at either)
                        5) Motivations are probably self preservation, love and antipathy, all of which are understandable and should put you in their shoes
                        6) Establish how their perspective differs from yours with core ideas of how women and men look at things differently (without blaming the opposite sex for it)
                        7) Enter a state of empathy and listening and simply experience what they experience
                        8) Feel the deep emotional understanding of how, what they are isn't so bad or at fault, but how somehow it translates like it does... forgive it without pedestalising it
                        9) Undo the constraints they put on you with their fearful arguements knowing they didnt know what they were saying
                        10) Come to your own understanding without the constraints

                        Ime the disgust doesn't have to last long at all...
                        I mean I even understand acts like fucking loser guys and shit for a pick me up
                        Cuz I get it
                        And it isn't all done for the other persons perfect picture of you that they are trying to selfishly maintain so they dont have to understand you as a real person
                        So yeah...

                        Thats how ya turn wild love into unconditional and selfless love

                        Though if I am totally honest, it still lacks one ingredient
                        Passion
                        But you won't find passion to exist inside wild love itself
                        It forms devoid of passion in its inception, and canabalises itself cuz it doesn't have it

                        You have to self generate passion in life, it is never delivered for you
                        So go out, live, become passionate
                        Apply that to the unconditional love and maybe you do ok

                        Thats my take on it

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Kit View Post
                          Can you besides giving your own view on the goal, since you feel like thats you being honest
                          also give tips on how I could achieve what I see as my goal?
                          I don't have tips towards the goal, I don't see the goal as possible or achievable or in someone's best interest, and anyone who claims selfless love outside a very outlier type life experience (parent of diabled child, child of sick parent, etc) is overlooking larger selfish underlying motives. This type of motivational unawareness is rarely in someone's best interest.

                          I've made that way more than clear by now though, so I'll bow out, let others say whatever they like and wish you the best of luck on whatever path you choose

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